Shebrew in the City
Shebrew in the City is a podcast exploring all things Jewish. Combining interviews and informational episodes, join Nicole Kelly as she discusses her journey with motherhood, spirituality, and everything from Hanukkah to the Holocaust. Giving a voice to modern Jews and spreading love and joy, whether you're Jewish, Jew-ish, or not anything resembling Jewish at all, there's something here for everyone.
Shebrew in the City
"Family Tree" - An Interview with 3GNY President Elizabeth Kamens
Elizabeth Kamens, the president of 3GNY, brings to light the profound connections between Jewish upbringing and Holocaust education. Elizabeth's journey from a Bat Mitzvah in Yardley, Pennsylvania, to leading an organization dedicated to preserving Holocaust legacies is a testament to the enduring impact of Jewish traditions and historical awareness. Through our conversation, Elizabeth shares the powerful emotions evoked by visiting historical Jewish sites. Her insights offer a unique perspective on the rich tapestry of Jewish identity and the significance of maintaining cultural traditions.
Holocaust education is more urgent than ever, and this episode underscores its critical role in combating ignorance and denial. We highlight the need to reach diverse student groups, emphasizing the alarming statistic that one-third of school-age children are unaware of the Holocaust. Elizabeth shares her personal encounters with survivor stories and iconic works like Schindler's List, illustrating the profound impact of personal narratives. The unique approach of 3GNY, training grandchildren of survivors to share family stories, provides a deeply personal connection to history, distinguishing it from traditional Holocaust education.
The conversation also delves into the broader implications of generational trauma and how it shapes Jewish identity and family narratives. Elizabeth and I explore the resilience of families who fled the rise of Hitler, the complexities of Jewish identity, and the ongoing influence of historical memory. We touch on community initiatives, from intergenerational brunches to engaging social events, highlighting their role in fostering supportive networks. This thoughtful exploration reminds us of the vital importance of preserving and sharing Holocaust legacies, ensuring future generations understand and remember the profound lessons of history.
For more information on 3GNY visit their website!
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Visiting a city for the first time and not sure what to do. A walking tour is a great place to start. Top Dog Tours is in Boston, Toronto, Philadelphia and New York City. To book a walking tour, you can visit us at topdogtours. com and be sure to check out our social media accounts for offers and discounts. Hi, I'm Nicole Kelly and Shebrew in in the City and today I am talking with Elizabeth Kamens, who is the president of a really amazing organization called 3GNY that I actually found out about because of one of my other guests and I'm really excited to talk about what the organization does and Elizabeth's family story as well. How are you doing this evening?
Elizabeth Kamens:I'm doing great. How are you? I'm good. It's nice to see you again.
Nicole Kelly:I know it's nice to see you again. I'm good. So I usually like to start off by asking my guests a little bit about kind of their background in general, where they're from. You know what, if any, jewish upbringing they had? Did they have a bar or bat mitzvah, that sort of thing?
Elizabeth Kamens:Sure. So I grew up in Yardley, Pennsylvania, which is like very northern suburbs of Philadelphia in Bucks County, and I grew up in an observant reform household. So I think a lot of people think, oh well, if you're reform, how can you really be observant? But we belong to a temple. My parents still belong to that temple. We observed all of the holidays, all of the traditions, went to synagogue, frequently had a bat mitzvah. Then after my bat mitzvah in the reform movement you have confirmation. So I went on and became confirmed and then I even was an assistant Hebrew school teacher for a few years. So remained very involved in the community, in the synagogue, and definitely Judaism was an important part of my upbringing.
Nicole Kelly:What did? Because I've never actually had a guest who was confirmed, and I grew up conservative, so that's not something that we did. And I know what my synagogue does. One of the things they do that's really cool is they do a trip to Berlin, because that's where the reform movement was founded. So that's part of their um, their confirmation process. What was that like for you? Wow, that's amazing.
Nicole Kelly:I know it's pretty fancy and they take them to you know the book burning memorial and the train platform in Berlin, which is like I literally I'm we're going to do an episode eventually about this trip my husband and I took to Poland and Germany. But I like, lost it on that train platform, like I was very, I was fine, and then we got there and I just couldn't handle my life.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, I know exactly where, what you're, where you're talking about, where you're referring to, because I was there on a trip as well, but it's very powerful. I mean all of the places that they bring you, that that signify everything from the past. It is, it's extremely powerful. Yes, Um, but the I wish we had gone to.
Elizabeth Kamens:Berlin when I was getting confirmed, that is for sure. But it was honestly. But it was honestly it was a lot of just expanded education. Like the rabbi of the temple taught our 10th grade confirmation and he was actually really into mystical Judaism and the Kabbalah, so we kind of went into that a lot and then in eighth and ninth grade, you know, I think there was a lot. There's honestly a lot of missed opportunity, I think, because you have these students that are there and whether you're, you know, engaging them in current events or whatnot, that we did not do. So it was, you know, something that kind of like we carried through in terms of my Hebrew education. But you know, I remember really the 10th grade with the rabbi to be the most, I guess, just different than what the prior, you know, years of my Hebrew school education had been, which was mostly prayers and holidays and Israel and that kind of thing.
Nicole Kelly:My favorite question to ask people is what was their theme of their bat mitzvah? What was their theme of?
Elizabeth Kamens:their bat mitzvah. So I actually didn't have a theme. It was just a really nice elegant affair that I, that my parents, threw. But there wasn't a specific theme. It wasn't like movies or trips or cities or anything like that, it was literally it was just the event, which I think was very meaningful. I mean, I think you know people can kind of it's insane how people get so elaborate with their feelings.
Nicole Kelly:I've seen like disgustingly elaborate things on Instagram because I follow a couple of Jewish event planners who are dealing with people who are in a extremely different tax bracket than I am so like, and also my husband he's like. This is disgusting because this is a party for a child and, like I do, I do love the idea of like very simplistic because it's not about the party. But I guess sometimes, when you're 13, it is about the party but it's not really about the party.
Elizabeth Kamens:No, that's exactly right, and I think maybe my opinion is a little controversial, but I don't necessarily and I also didn't have one but subscribe to the theme idea. I think it's. Really. It does kind of take away from what you're actually doing and the meaning behind the momentous occasion that is the Bar or Bat Mitzvah, and you know, when you look back to sometimes you say, oh wow, that's what I was interested in that time. But the lack of a theme I think is more timeless.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, one of the rabbis at our synagogue. She didn't have a theme either. She is a twin and I guess one of the moms in, like her Hebrew school class, made cake. So they did like a big cake, like a flower basket, and there was like a basketball for her brother and I don't remember what she said was for her, but it was like a little thing on the cake was kind of their was their thing. Oh, a Tiffany box little thing on the cake was kind of their was their thing.
Nicole Kelly:Oh, a tiffany box. I'm glad that you remembered that and it's funny because one of the dads in my daughter's class was best friends with her brother going up and he's like I don't remember if there is a theme at their their wow, I don't know. I'm just obsessed with the idea of like the crazy ridiculous parties and the history behind that, because at some point it started and I want to, as like a budding historian, want to figure out when that started and write a book about it, because I think it's so fascinating and it's such a North American thing.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, that's a very good point, and it is true that it didn't start with that. You know, like back in the day it was, it was a service and that was it. So then somehow it evolved into this whole other thing that it's become now.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, Like people who had more money would have. Like like a nicer party at a restaurant maybe, but a lot of people would do something in their backyard or at their house and they wouldn't you know. But there are people who have like 500 people at Bar, bar Mitzvahs. Now it's like a wedding.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, yes it is.
Nicole Kelly:So then it's what do you build up to? Well, that's what my that was my mother's argument is because I wanted a nighttime party really badly, but she was like I'd rather spend more money and save for your wedding, because no one sits around and talks about your bar, about mitzvahs. And I was like that's all I do now is talk to people about their bat mitzvahs, so your reasoning is a little, a little off on that. And I posted something on like a video about being at like the 25th anniversary year of my bat mitzvah and people commented on it remembering how much fun they had.
Patrick Kelly:So I was like see people do remember bar and bat mitzvahs.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, I was really I was actually really surprised. I want to put that on like a business card whatever, I end up doing. People still talk about my bat mitzvah. It's a fun thing. So, going back to kind of why we're talking in general, can you tell me about the organization that you are the president of and how the organization got started?
Elizabeth Kamens:Sure.
Elizabeth Kamens:So I'm the president of an organization called 3GNY, which is an education nonprofit and it was founded back in 2005 by six grandchildren of Holocaust survivors and the education is really there's a few different elements to it but essentially back when it was founded the grandchildren were looking for like-minded individuals who were looking to share and preserve their grandparents' stories, being that as the third generation they were able to hear for the most part their grandparents' stories directly and they were the last essentially living link of the individuals who could hear those stories.
Elizabeth Kamens:And when their grandparents had passed away or you know, some were still alive, but they realized that when they passed away they would likely be the last link that had heard those stories, actually that testimony directly from the survivor. So the organization was started, you know, back in 2005 with kind of a general open community mindset. But it's evolved a lot over the years and one of our main pieces now is what we call the we Do program or we Educate, where we have a training program and we enable grandchildren of survivors to kind of construct and mold their grandparents' stories in such a way that we then have connections with schools and we can send these grandchildren, the third generation, into schools to help to share and really preserve the legacy, in conjunction with whether it's Holocaust education or World War II, or even diversity, bullying, all of those types of things, and then also 3G and Y. The other really large component is the community and the social element and just gathering together and knowing that you know this shared history is amongst everyone. That's a part of it.
Nicole Kelly:What school? What age of? Let me phrase this in an intelligent way what are the ages of the school children that you are going and talking to?
Elizabeth Kamens:So the youngest is about fourth, fifth grade, which some people think could be a little bit young, but it really depends on what you're sharing with them. And then we go all the way up to seniors in high school. So you know 18 years old and we've definitely gone into colleges as well, but I would say that the main range is like older end of elementary school, middle school and high school.
Nicole Kelly:Are these public schools? Are they private schools? How do you get in touch with the school? Like, what is that process? I know I didn't write this down as a question, but you know how does that work. Do you have like an ongoing relationship with some schools or they reach out to you?
Elizabeth Kamens:It's really both, you know, we, and that's one of the most important things.
Elizabeth Kamens:So, if anyone is listening that has a connection to a school or is an educator, we are constantly seeking classrooms to go into, whether it's private schools, whether it's, you know, public schools, parochial schools, really anything it we can fit into any type of curriculum.
Elizabeth Kamens:And even if it's, you know, public schools, parochial schools, really anything we can fit into any type of curriculum. And even if it's not, you know, holocaust-related curriculum, english or, you know again, some kinds of diversity education, a lot of different things that we can go into. But we are constantly trying to solicit new schools, new teachers, and then a lot of teachers have had our speakers come for years and we're just, you know, every year we'll reach out or they'll reach out to us and say, you know this, my lesson is coming up on, you know, world War II, or the students will be reading Knight in May. Can a speaker come after we finish this lesson plan? And we hope that by our speakers going into schools we develop a relationship with a lot of the teachers who usually are there for a very long time in terms of their careers and longevities in these schools, and that we can really develop a relationship with them.
Nicole Kelly:I think that's one of the things that's really important about Holocaust education is it's not just about the Holocaust, it does talk, you know, things like racism and diversity and bullying. It kind of plays into that. And I think you know there's that scary statistic that you know like how many I don't. I'm sure you know the statistic, I can't think today, the percentage of school children who don't know about the Holocaust and that six million Jews died, it's a staggeringly high one third, um, so that, yes, thank you, thank you, um, um. So that one third of school age children don't know that six million Jews died in the Holocaust. And I think what's so important about your organization is talking about being the last generation as we get further and further away. You know we're almost 100 years to the point where the Nazi party took over.
Nicole Kelly:You know, that'll be in 2033. And that's really scary to think that the more we distance ourselves from this, the less and less I think people will know about this. And then we get into that weird area of Holocaust denial, making excuses, and it's just. It's a little crazy to me. No, it's a little crazy to me.
Elizabeth Kamens:No, it's true, and you know a lot of states I mean not enough, but some in New Jersey and New York do have mandated Holocaust education. So that is something that is, you know, we, we can tie in with that, obviously in their mandated curriculum, which is important.
Nicole Kelly:Yes, in another life I want to be a lobbyist who tries to get every state in America and Canada, who especially needs it right now because they're a mess up there with antisemitism at the moment.
Nicole Kelly:I keep seeing stuff on Instagram and we part of. We are also like our company's, also in Toronto, and I'm like I love Canada. I think Canadians are very welcoming. Clearly, they are antisemitic for some reason as well, I know, I know. So at some point I think maybe not me, but someone should kind of start lobbying for that, because I think it's super important. It shouldn't just be like a page in a European history book, correct?
Elizabeth Kamens:Oh, absolutely Absolutely. I know I didn't grow up with it. I mean we didn't have education or mandated at all whatsoever in my, in my school curriculum, which was a problem. I mean it definitely was needed.
Nicole Kelly:I do know anything that I learned. It was through Hebrew school, my third grade Hebrew school teacher was an Auschwitz survivor.
Nicole Kelly:She was there when she was 13, told this horribly disturbing story which may not have been appropriate for eight year olds, about how she dug the grave for her parents. So like I will never, for I will never forget that. But and then I remember when I was in elementary school. It was the first time Schindler's List was shown on television and it was like a big thing whether or not people were allowed to watch it. I don't, I wasn't that like I wasn't allowed to watch it, but I didn't watch it.
Elizabeth Kamens:I don't it wasn't that like I wasn't allowed to watch it, but I didn't watch it and I'm kind of glad because I think watching it for the first time as an adult was much more powerful.
Nicole Kelly:But I did read the Diary of Anne Frank, I think when I got to junior high and high school there wasn't really any curriculum directly about the Holocaust. My husband is saying that he, he's they. They didn't really talk about it other than this is something that happened. Uh, and you?
Nicole Kelly:know we did obviously cause we're from California. They talked a lot about the Japanese internment camps. I think we talked more about that than the Holocaust, which California curriculum tends to focus a lot on. California, like in fourth grade, the entire state. It's only California history.
Nicole Kelly:So, I think that might be part of it. But I mean, who knows, maybe in my high school and junior high it's changed, but it was. You know, we read night. But I also went to a private school, so I think that was part of the reason we read night. I don't know if it's something.
Nicole Kelly:I would have happened in fifth grade if I'd gone to a public school but, sure my daughter goes to a Jewish day school and I I know that, um, I remember reading an email that the principal actually comes and reads the book with them night. So you know it's kind of like a thing he really cherishes doing with the kids. So I'm, I'm sure I mean also because of me and what I'm trying to go to school for my daughter will be well aware of all these things. But it's kind of crazy a little bit Looking back on the lack of education about what I consider to be probably the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the world.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, yes, no, I agree. I mean, I went to a public school and I had, I had a Holocaust denier in my, you know, in one of my classes as a senior, and there was no, there was no curriculum at all. So I don't even remember. Obviously I knew about it and was almost self-educated in certain ways, but there was nothing and it would have been very, very necessary and needed, and it would have been very, very necessary and needed. You know, now, looking back, like how easy would it have been to have something to provide, to maybe stop that.
Nicole Kelly:But who knows. I've never understood Holocaust deniers because the Nazis were nothing, if like very specific about keeping records of everything and there's a lot of footage of stuff. So I just don't understand the idea of just denying something that's very well documented. You know, I agree.
Nicole Kelly:I agree it's, I don't know it's. We, when we were, went to Auschwitz, we asked our tour guide if she'd ever had one, and she said she had a lady whose son was kind of like I don't know what. Did she say? That that he was like not sure, I guess, which is a weird thing to say. He was like not sure, I guess, which is a weird thing to say I'm not sure if this happened. But no one who, like, was outright a Holocaust denier, which is good, I guess, as if you're taking people there, wow, so, going back to 3GNY, so let's say, someone listening or someone who's following me on social media is a third generation of a Holocaust survivor. So how would they get involved with the organization?
Elizabeth Kamens:Sure, so we absolutely welcome anyone who would like to be involved. I would say the easiest thing is you can email us at info at 3G New York dot org or you can reach out to me, to any of the individuals that are involved. We have an Instagram page 3GNY. Additionally, we have a lot of events that you're free to come to at any time, so our next event will be a virtual event. So the next in-person event will be for Yom HaShoah, which is Monday, may 6th, and that is at the Stanton Street Shul. So feel free to come.
Elizabeth Kamens:It's totally open and we welcome anyone from the public. We just ask that you would register in advance. But if you really want to join our speaker training program or just become involved in any capacity, feel free to email us and we do try, if people are really interested in getting involved, to have a call with them and just explain the organization and see what their background is, what they might want to be interested in, whether it's helping us plan events, whether it's fundraising, school outreach you know outreach. So any of those things, we welcome anyone to become involved.
Nicole Kelly:So a big part of what you do is sending the 3GN wires. I guess we're going to call them into schools to educate people. So what type of training do you provide people? So let's say, you know, people don't have a history of public speaking, maybe they're a little bit nervous. So what is the type of training that you provide them to be able to educate people?
Elizabeth Kamens:So it's really grounded in constructing your grandparent's story. And then with that, we understand that not everyone loves to public speak or to speak publicly or is, you know, really wanting to get out there and share. But we don't focus as much on that. But because the story is so personal, I think a lot of people are able to overcome that, to be honest, and we have our training is all virtual, so it's four weeks long and each week is focuses on a certain part of kind of constructing the story or taking what you have, the knowledge that you have, or information or the history from your grandparent and kind of culling it together to have a 30 or so minute presentation to bring into a school. So you know, the first week is kind of an overview. The second week we ask students to come back with an outline of their grandparents' history, their story, and then the next week, the third week, we ask students to come with like a really specific story from their grandparents' larger story. So some you know whether it's some type of incident or you know something that happened that they can the speaker, the grandchild can really put a lot of detail into, and then by the last week they'll come with kind of a rough presentation and they'll share it with a smaller group breakout rooms on Zoom. So by the time the fourth week comes, they've kind of drilled down the facts.
Elizabeth Kamens:And a lot of grandchildren, when they come to the class, they might have overwhelming amounts of information from their grandparents or they might have none. So it's really a variety of things. And a lot of times they use the four-week program to then go back. Or you know, okay, I'm going to be going to my parents' or my relatives' house in the next month. So like, let me see if I can ask some questions or get more information while I'm going through this class. Me see if I can ask some questions or get more information while I'm going through this class to see if I can pull out more details for the story.
Elizabeth Kamens:And then we also always offer if, if speakers want additional sessions to kind of finesse their story.
Elizabeth Kamens:Or you know, if it's been a year since they've gone into a classroom, for example, and they're like I'm a little rusty, I want to brush up and I want to have someone listen to the story and make sure it flows or it makes sense, we always offer that as well, so the speaker can reach out to us and we'll always provide someone who's a little bit more senior, I guess, within the organization or has been really speaking a lot, and have them listen in.
Elizabeth Kamens:And then, throughout each quarter or so, we do have additional programs where we'll have people from the outside come in and offer sessions with us. So whether that's Rachel Cerati is an example and she wrote a memoir about her grandma with her grandmother's story, and she came to us a few years ago now and did a kind of storytelling presentation and how memory works. And we've had another program with more recently, actually since October 7th, where we had people from the AJC come in and they spoke with us about dealing with questions relating to Israel or anti-Semitism, because that isn't something that we really go over in the training but obviously is important and prevalent now.
Nicole Kelly:That makes sense Is part of the presentation visual. Do they present pictures or video or things like that along with talking?
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, absolutely. And again, it's really dependent upon what the family has. So a lot of survivors were able to give testimony to USC Shoah and they might have recordings, but we do tell the grandchildren that we want it to be in their voice, even though it's their grandparent's story, so maybe they could include a clip of their grandparents, but otherwise they could show the whole story from their grandparents. So we really wanted to take that and create their own presentation and a lot of survivors survived with nothing. They have no photographs, they have nothing from their lives before the war. So it really is so varied in terms of what people have when they go to make their presentation. So if people want to use maps or other different types of resources just to make it interactive for the students but I would say the majority, almost all really go into it with some kind of visual presentation PowerPoint, so at least the students are able to put visuals with the story.
Nicole Kelly:How many speakers do you have that go out to the schools?
Elizabeth Kamens:We have in the hundreds. I mean, we've trained over 500 speakers to date and each year it's growing more and more. So each class we have about 12 to 14 volunteers, volunteer speakers. We have about 12 to 14 volunteers, volunteer speakers, and then we run about, at this point, about four or so classes a year. So we have, you know, hundreds of speakers and, granted, not everyone wants to be speaking at the same time, but I believe last year, I think, we went into like over 60 classrooms. So it's great and you know, obviously the more the better.
Nicole Kelly:So what, in your opinion, makes 3GNY speakers different than people who are Holocaust educators, who are not descendants of survivors?
Elizabeth Kamens:So 3GNY speakers are not claiming to be experts in the Holocaust, but rather experts in our grandparent story. So I think that's a huge difference in terms of scholars in the Holocaust and we do tell teachers. We do not teach the Holocaust, but we did hear our grandparent stories firsthand, so it's able to connect a real face with the story and we're hoping that, providing that close connection to students. It's more real and it's more, it's more present than just reading a story in a textbook. But you know, by any means, we in our, in our training program and in how we aid speakers to go into classrooms, we do not, you know, claim to be experts in the Holocaust, but we do say you know.
Elizabeth Kamens:A lot of times students will ask questions. So it's good for the speakers to if they're aware of basic events, particularly if they're mentioning things within their story. So you know, for example, in my grandparents' stories I talk about when the Nuremberg laws came into effect. So I might briefly explain that. But I don't know, some students might not have any education on that within their curriculum, so I might be explaining that to them for the first time. So you want to be able to know what you're talking about, obviously, but at the same time we're not claiming to be experts, gotcha.
Nicole Kelly:So I saw that you recently had your first 4G speaker, which is crazy that you know someone knew their great grandparents and was able to kind of get this story from them. Is this something that your organization is hoping to cultivate further, even to the point of people maybe who didn't know their great grandparents, or are you trying to keep that direct line of connection with the speakers?
Elizabeth Kamens:So we are absolutely, you know, open to 4Gs and I really think it's inevitable because as we as the 3Gs age and the next generation comes in, you know, a lot of the 4Gs were able to meet their grandparents and hear those stories as well firsthand. And if they didn't, they're still connected through their parents who are the 3Gs. So I think it's exciting. And you know, obviously, our last speaker, erin, she had a very close relationship with her great-grandmother and it's really phenomenal that she was able to present that story and had such a close connection and knew the story so well. So I think it's just inevitable that eventually the 4Gs will come into action and a lot of the 3Gs too. Their kids are becoming a certain age where they're like can they come to events, Are they are, they're becoming interested in this history that is within their family. So it's really wonderful.
Nicole Kelly:So you talked about a couple of events. What are? You know? What are some of the events that you've held in the past, and I know you talked about the Om Hoshua event. Maybe some things you're going to be planning in the future as well.
Elizabeth Kamens:So a lot of our events are educational. We just had an event last week actually, where we had a photographer author who came out with a book featuring who. He shot it during COVID actually and he interviewed over 100 survivors. Shot it during COVID actually and he interviewed over 100 survivors. It's a picture book but there's stories about each of the photos that he took of these survivors and he interviewed two survivors that are featured in the book and we had a book talk, essentially at Hebrew Union College downtown, which was really. It was a really exceptional event and really meaningful to hear the photographer and author and then these two survivors who were in the book and really more about their story and their background.
Elizabeth Kamens:So we'll have different events like that.
Elizabeth Kamens:Some of our main events that we have each year are, every fall, in October, we have an intergenerational brunch, which is really lovely.
Elizabeth Kamens:We have, you know, again mentioning 4Gs to survivors attend, which is really nice because a lot of 2Gs as well are now at an age where they're the, you know, senior generation, so it was their parents.
Elizabeth Kamens:So we have a lot of 2Gs who attend and that's always a really well-received event. Every January, usually around International Holocaust Remembrance Day, we'll have a Shabbat dinner and during the year we'll have some just purely social happy hours, which are nice, and we also, during the pandemic, actually started a program that was virtual, called we Do Wednesdays, where we have a volunteer speaker present what they would go into a school and present, which is really great because it gives access to the presentation not just for school age. So you know you're sharing it with older generations, you know again 2Gs and like friends and people that wouldn't necessarily hear these peers, colleagues hear these presentations. So that has been really well received and we were doing them like every other week for a period of time but now it's tapered off to a few a year. But that's another main event that we have gotten a lot of really great feedback.
Nicole Kelly:So what about people like myself who are not descendants? Is there a place within your organization for them attending events, things like that?
Elizabeth Kamens:Absolutely so. I think our community events provide a really supportive forum for the grandchildren of survivors, but also for anyone that is interested or wanting to be involved. I think one of the words that we describe a lot for the type of person that comes to our events are Menchie individuals, and I think that really passes through. So, you know, you don't have to be a grandchild of survivors to come to like the book talk that we had last week. You know, in fact there were be a grandchild of survivors to come to like the book talk that we had last week. You know, in fact there were a lot of people that were there that didn't have any familial connections to the Holocaust but rather wanted to hear this author and wanted to hear these survivors.
Elizabeth Kamens:Same goes for our intergenerational brunch. You know people can come and they don't necessarily have to have that community, but we a lot in the past have had survivors speak during that brunch. So that's another, you know, way to just be a part of our community. And you know, same again for the Shabbat dinner or a lot of our events. You don't have to necessarily be part of our WeDo program, which is the volunteer program to go into schools. You can really, just you know come to our events and whether they're in person or virtual, and our community, I think, speaks for itself.
Nicole Kelly:What made you decide to become president? Were you on the board before, or what kind of sparked that in you?
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, so I've always been very involved, ever since I was young and I was involved in 3GNY for a while and then became a board member in 2021. And really it evolved in that our president had been in the position for a while like six years and he was looking to stay on the board, but step down. And he actually just asked me and I mean, I did think about it for a while and I had to be voted on as president by the board, but step down. And he actually just asked me and I mean, I did think about it for a while, um, and I had to be voted on as the president by the board. So it wasn't just like, yeah, sure.
Elizabeth Kamens:I'll do it Um but but yeah, so I think it was more just, um, you know, wanting to make sure I would be able to handle the time commitment with work and you know, but I had already been a board member prior, so it progression in a way.
Nicole Kelly:How long have you been president Since last?
Elizabeth Kamens:like January.
Nicole Kelly:Okay, okay, has it been interesting, kind of coming out of COVID and working with programming and all of that.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, very. We let's see last year, I think no, maybe 2022 was probably the first year that we were fully like doing things, but I think we didn't see the results of people attending events, maybe until last year. Even so, it was very interesting, but it's good. I mean, I think the one thing that we see is for our social events, like happy hours. People really want to be social and want to be out there with the community. I think for so long with the community, I think for so long we were inhibited with not being able to be in a crowded bar with people that are like-minded and, you know, share like a commonality. So it's really nice and I think we've found that. You know, we've had a lot of success in our in-person events.
Nicole Kelly:So I want to talk about your family story. So you know, if someone doesn't have the opportunity to see you speak, I want them to be able to hear that. So on the website it says that your grandparents are Holocaust refugees. Can you explain what the difference between that and a Holocaust survivor is? Sure, so.
Elizabeth Kamens:I believe the definition has actually changed. But growing up we never called my grandparents Holocaust survivors. They were always refugees because they were able to escape and get out and they were. Neither my maternal grandmother nor my maternal grandfather were in concentration camps. So because of that, we were always told and they referred to themselves as refugees, it was never a survivor. I believe that the definition has changed now. To anyone that was a, a that was a victim of Nazi persecution, which started in 1933. So technically under this newer definition they would be considered survivors. But again, because they escaped, they were able to get out before you know, going to a camp they were. We call them refugees Gotcha.
Nicole Kelly:That's what I thought. I just wanted to confirm what I thought without saying something.
Elizabeth Kamens:It's interesting.
Nicole Kelly:You're right, it has changed, because I know there's that movie that just came out with Anthony Hopkins about the man whose name I can't remember I want to see that I do too, but it's only showing at the AMC in like the morning. So I'm trying to coordinate with a friend. She has AMC pass and she is like a real job nine to five and I was like, well, this is just not convenient at all for anyone but he saved a bunch of children through the kidder transport and they've been referring to those children as survivors.
Nicole Kelly:So I do feel you are very correct that the terms really have changed because those children obviously left before they you know their families would have died in the camps, but they themselves would not have been in camps.
Elizabeth Kamens:Interesting that is. Yes, I think a lot of definitions have changed, or the way that we that I was taught anyways, yeah.
Nicole Kelly:How old were you when you learned about your parent, your grandparents' story?
Elizabeth Kamens:learned about your parent, your grandparents story. So I always knew my grandparents were German, and they spoke in German frequently around my sister and I. But I would say pretty specifically, I was in sixth grade and there was a contest a writing contest I think, in Hebrew school and about maybe it was like our family history, and I probably came home with a slip of paper and my mom was like, oh you could, you know, enter the contest. And at that point, though, what was interesting is I really had no concept of the magnitude of the story or really the history. I hadn't really learned anything at that point. I mean, we had read Number of the Stars in fifth grade.
Nicole Kelly:That was about it, yes, which I was just saying is a perfect introduction to the Holocaust story, and I am obsessed with the cover art on that book as well.
Elizabeth Kamens:Side note it's so beautiful it is and it has in like the aging of it, it's still on point now.
Elizabeth Kamens:However, many years later after it was written, it's still so applicable and relevant. Yeah, so I do remember reading that in public school and Hebrew school simultaneously, like literally the same unit, same time, but again, still didn't really understand the magnitude of everything and obviously my family history. So my mom at the time called my grandfather to get the facts of his story and then kind of I just like hand wrote it and I mean I definitely did not win the contest or whatever was happening with that, but that was really the first time that I learned what his story was and where he was from and all of that. And then when he passed away two years later, I was 14 and he was a war veteran. That's part of his story. But I actually read the story at like a local meeting for the Jewish war veterans in my town, so that was kind of more my awareness of it was, I would say, like like I was probably around 11 or 12 when I first learned.
Nicole Kelly:So I'd love to hear the story about each of your grandparents individually, because I'm assuming that they weren't married when, uh, maybe they were.
Patrick Kelly:I'm assuming, because I'm assuming that they weren't married when maybe they were. I'm assuming that's correct.
Nicole Kelly:No, no, no, I'm just trying to think of, like timing, what their life was like before the war you mentioned your grandfather was a veteran, maybe during the war and then after the war, and maybe how they met as well.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, sure. So they were both German Jews, which I think you know definitely connected as to how they met after the war. But so I'll start with my grandmother, trudy. And I was extremely close with both of my grandparents growing up. So my grandmother Trudy was born in Würzburg, germany, and she was from a very, you know, the family was very integrated with society and her father, she had a twin sister. Her father was, I believe, worked in insurance and they were well off. You know, they had a very, very nice upbringing. They were, you know, integrated with non-Jews.
Elizabeth Kamens:She was Orthodox, went to a Jewish school and, you know, really had a very good life, like that's the one thing I remember. She would always talk to me up until the end of her life about Germany and her, you know, before the war and before, like Hitler, came to power and how good things were. But she came from a pretty prominent family. A lot of her relatives were judges and lawyers and she, you know, during the 1930s, then, after Hitler came to power, things just progressively started to get worse for the Jews and slowly their, you know, rights and privileges were taken away from them to the point where she, you know, they were trying to get out. But they were there during Kristallnacht, which is the 9th of November, the night of broken glass. And when I did interview her, when I was in high school and she describes it as being, you know, young men came to the door, took her father away, he was sent to a concentration camp for multiple weeks, jailed then a concentration camp, and she was locked in a room with her twin sister and her mother and they just were breaking everything in the apartment, smashing glass and, you know, when they came out everything was destroyed and they knew that they had to get out and fortunately they had relatives who came to the United States.
Elizabeth Kamens:So they, you know, had to give up everything and again they were fairly well off and prominent, so to give up literally everything you have. And then, you know, had to become a gardener and my grandmother was around 16 when she came here. She was a babysitter and a nanny and, you know, just taking whatever jobs that they could because they just needed to support themselves. But one of my grandmother's relatives actually was a very well-known attorney in Munich and he's actually featured in a lot of the history books because he—this was like pretty early on in 1933 when Hitler came to power, he was—he had reported, I believe, like through work as a lawyer, that he wanted to file a complaint. So he went to a police station, like on behalf of a client he was filing a complaint, and they actually made him parade through the streets with a sign around his neck and it was his name was Michael Siegel, and so that was my grandmother's direct relative.
Elizabeth Kamens:So they, you know, she had a lot of family that they kind of scattered all throughout the globe when they were trying to get to wherever they could. But yeah, so she, she had a lot of stories, you know, just in terms of family members and people went to China and Shanghai and South America and really just wherever they they could, they they tried to get someone to, to get them out.
Nicole Kelly:I think a lot of people don't realize that, like at the very very beginning before the Holocaust, they just wanted the Jews out. So they were giving people an option to leave, but they had to leave their businesses and their money. They couldn't take anything with them. So you know, and I feel like this is something that I read in a lot of books about survivors and thankfully this wasn't the case with your family but there are a lot of people especially want to immigrate to what was then called Palestine or to America and they wanted to bring their parents, but their parents were like I'm too old, I am settled here, I can't start over.
Nicole Kelly:So they ended up staying and then most of the people ended up dying in concentration camps or you know, in other horrible ways. But you know, I think that you know, growing up I was always like why didn't they know what was gonna happen? Why didn't they leave? And it's like because you know and I learned later it was because, even if you were able to leave, it was completely starting over. You know, your great grandparents were probably middle aged at this point. That would have been very difficult.
Elizabeth Kamens:Exactly, and also my grandmother said that it was very expensive, Like even though they had to give everything up, they had to pay all of this money to the German government and then they had to have these sponsors in America or wherever you were going, to also pay for them. So, to have you know complete I know she had family members that were able to like help with them with visas, but I think you also had to have someone vouch for you, essentially like in the United States, so those people also had to put up a tremendous amount of money. So to have you know, just like strangers, putting up all of this money for you. Um, it was difficult. It was way more when people are like, well, why didn't they just leave?
Nicole Kelly:It was very it was very, very involved, yeah, very, very involved. And then, at one point, they stopped letting people leave. And then, exactly, Exactly so.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yeah, so that was my grandmother's story and it's actually my grandfather's story that I'll share in schools because his story is a bit more involved. So he was raised in um. He was born in a smaller town called Osthofen, germany, which is, like I've actually been to, where he is from. So he's about, I guess, like an hour and a half or two hours or so south of Frankfurt, but it's a beautiful countryside, whereas my grandmother was more of the city, cosmopolitan upbringing, cosmopolitan upbringing and there were vineyards and farms and his father was a cattle farmer or rancher and he died of natural causes. But my grandfather had three brothers and one sister, so it was quite a big family. But they were also very integrated, you know, had a lot of in society, had a lot of friends and community that appreciated them and respected them that were non-Jews and at, I guess, after my grandfather's father. So my great-grandfather passed away, they moved into a slightly bigger city nearby called Worms, which actually has a very famous synagogue, the Rashi synagogue. Yeah, so that's, that was like his synagogue, you know, growing up or when he was a bit older and, again, you know, very integrated in um, in the, in the community, and he was a bit older. So he he was born in 1917.
Elizabeth Kamens:So when Hitler came to power, you know he was already like older, trying to figure out work, job. You know what is he going to do? So he was going to as an apprentice for hardware and he was working for someone like a local shop keeper as an apprentice in hardware. And he was also there on Kristallnacht and we learned that he had to go hide in a back room and the store was obviously destroyed. And then he was also along with his two brothers who were around his age, arrested on Kristallnacht. And his sister was a bit older, married, settled and worked actually for the local city government. So she was able to secure my grandfather and two of his brothers release at that time, with the promise that they would kind of just leave as soon as they could if they could, and again through his sister's husband. So my grandfather's brother-in-law's family they were able to send. They had three visas essentially, but there were five people at that point remaining, figuring his sister was kind of taken care of because she was married. So it was my grandfather, and then he had a much younger brother who was, I think, like around 12 years old or so at that point, and so my great grandmother, my grandfather's mother, had to decide okay, I'll let my three older sons take these visas, and with the hope that maybe they could get to safety and send back for them. So after Kristallnacht it was then they were really trying to essentially scramble and figure out next steps. So my grandfather and two of his two brothers. They went to Sweden for two years, actually almost two years. They worked on a farm in exchange for room and board, and during that time my great-grandmother and my grandfather's youngest brother were taken to a ghetto and then ultimately taken to an extermination camp and killed there. They obviously didn't know what was happening at the time.
Elizabeth Kamens:My grandfather slowly made his way to the United States, where his sister was then at that point he took the Trans-Siberian Railroad across Russia, then went to Japan, then Korea or Korea, then Japan, and then took a boat to the west coast of the United States and then a bus to New York, where he first settled, and then eventually he went to Connecticut, which was where his sister was living.
Elizabeth Kamens:He got a job in a factory and someone overheard him speaking with a German accent, and at this point the United States was at war against the Germans in World War II and they reported my grandfather as a spy. So he had to go to Washington DC and meet with government officials and then, in order to test whether he was really a spy or not, their question was would you fight for the United States, figuring if he said no, then maybe he's a spy. So he said yes you know, of course I'm a refugee and explained his story and he went back home. Eventually, I think a few weeks later I don't think it was that long he received a draft letter in the mail and he was drafted into the United States Army fighting then for the United States, sent back to Europe, ultimately Germany, and he ended up being landing as part of the troops on D-Day on the beaches of Normandy.
Nicole Kelly:This is an insane story. I want to make a movie about your grandfather.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yeah, he was, I mean, a really remarkable man and so humble and modest, you know, to think of everything that they had been through. But yes, so traveling all through these major battles in Europe during World War II and eventually coming back to the United States too. And eventually coming back to the United States, and he met my grandmother. I think a friend actually tried to set up one of my grandfather's brothers with my grandmother, but my grandfather ended up being available and offering to meet my grandmother at the bus when she was coming down. She had settled in Boston initially, so the bus from Boston came to New York and my grandfather met the bus to help Trudy off. The bus from Boston came to New York and my grandfather met the bus to help Trudy off the bus, and the rest is history.
Nicole Kelly:That's insane. That is an insane story. That is crazy. Do you know which camp your great grandmother and I guess he'd be your great uncle were taken to?
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, so yes, they were taken to Belzec, which was just an extermination camp, Um. So they were murdered pretty quickly after uh, very quickly, I think after arriving there.
Nicole Kelly:So those are crazy stories. Um, so one of my favorite things that one of my favorite things to talk about, um, one of the things I'm interested in is generational trauma in general. You know, I think as Jewish people, we carry that. I feel like, you know, I bring this up, I think, a few times on different shows where my mom used to not say Hanukkah in public and I would make fun of her. And now I get it because of everything that's going on right now. So even you know, my mother's great grandmother came through Ellis Island in 1920.
Nicole Kelly:So you know they didn't experience. You know Hitler coming to power in Europe in World War II, but still carry that trauma. I definitely am interested in the generational trauma that the descendants of Holocaust survivors carry. Is this something that your family dealt with, that maybe other 3G NYers you know dealt with?
Elizabeth Kamens:Yeah. So I would say my grandparents were extremely positive people, I mean really remarkable in terms of their outlook on life, and I am fortunate that I, you know whatever trauma that they held in with them because of their experiences. They really tried very hard not to pass that on, if they could, to my mother and you know my mother then to my generation. So I think it's almost the opposite, like they really tried to be so mindful of leading good lives that they, whatever trauma that they held, it wasn't really faced, it wasn't outward facing. But I do think, um, you know one thing I am very aware, of which I don't know if this is related, I, I, I think it could be and I, since October 7th, I've actually thought more about this.
Elizabeth Kamens:I am, as you just mentioned, very aware of antisemitism and I don't know if it's because I grew up in a pretty mixed area or what, but you know, even when we you travel, like I was always taught, you know, don't wear a Star of David, like keep it low key, you don't have to. You know, talk about, you know this, and like just kind of meld in. And I think that comes from my grandparents being immigrants and you know it was very different then than it is today. It was like meld in, become American, learn to speak English, you know. So, in terms of not that that's trauma, but I think it's more just of like, how you kind of live your life.
Elizabeth Kamens:So you know, when October 7th happened, a lot of friends of mine were, you know, like aghast at the anti-Semitism that was coming out, and I wasn't that surprised. I mean, I don't know if it's just. I think it's because I've seen it's always there, it's just been underneath the surface and it's sad, but I think I'm just very aware of that. So I would say that's something that I've definitely that's been embedded in me in terms of like, and again, it could be because of my family history, but my mom always reminds me that my grandfather always said you don't look back, you just keep going forward. So I think, in terms of trying to rebuild and move on with their lives, that's really the outlook that they took.
Nicole Kelly:I think you know, like I said, I'm not a descendant of Holocaust survivors. My great grandmother lived in Russia during World War I and obviously would have lived through the pogroms and they didn't talk about it Like to the point that we felt. When my great aunt moved out of our house we found a telegram that they sent from Ellis Island saying they were detained and needed money so we have, it's in my bedroom.
Elizabeth Kamens:It's framed.
Nicole Kelly:It says detained Ellis Island send money. So they didn't. We didn't even know that. So it was so much so that they were like we're going to move on. They didn't mention, like a huge thing, being detained when you enter the country. So I think a lot of people who survived some sort of traumatic experience, especially when they were young adults, cause I think my great grandmother was 16 when they came.
Patrick Kelly:Yes, she said she was 16.
Nicole Kelly:She lied about her age her whole life, so we don't know for sure, that's unbelievable. Yeah, she's one of those ones who picked a birthday at Ellis Island because she didn't know what her birthday was in the English calendar.
Nicole Kelly:But I think it's something that a lot of people, even immigrants, today, will kind of just forget and try to move on and, like you said, americanize. And I feel like I'm the opposite of you, though I feel like I was a little naive about the amount of anti-Semitism you know. I tell I tell a story sometimes that you know, between acting gigs.
Nicole Kelly:In my early 20s I was working at a, at a White House black market clothing store, at a mall yeah, it was very fancy, and one of the people who worked there was a, was a woman who's retired and was just kind of trying to make a little money and pass some time and she was very active with the ADL and I asked her oh, what is that? And she explained it to me and I said I remember thinking, well, why do we need something like that now, like this, doesn't? This is not a problem? In the same way, and throughout the course of time, I've realized that, you know, organizations like that are very important and I think I grew up a little sheltered, like I come from an area of Los Angeles that has a very prominent Jewish community.
Nicole Kelly:You know I feel like I've said, I don't think I met anyone who wasn't Jewish, maybe until I was like five.
Patrick Kelly:So you know, just being Jewish was normal, you know.
Nicole Kelly:I it was and I've talked to people who are even from other parts of Southern California, like one of our rabbis is from a non-Jewish area and she talked I've had conversations with her about the anti-Semitism that she dealt with in high school and that's not something I dealt with. So I feel like a part of me is trying to atone for my ignorance a little bit by educating people.
Elizabeth Kamens:No, of course. I mean, look, I think a lot of it is so dependent upon where you grew up and who you came into contact with. You know, even regardless of your family history, because I think even a lot of 3Gs, or descendants of survivors, they grew up in very Jewish areas and maybe you know on a lot of different factors, but yeah, I don't think it just you know because of who my grandparents were makes that any different. I think it's just like that, combined with different things and what they spoke about additionally.
Nicole Kelly:So you mentioned that you've been to Germany to see where your grandfather is from. Did you have you seen where your grandmother's from? What was that experience like, were? I mean, were there any, you know, remnants of relatives there?
Elizabeth Kamens:So I went to Germany. I've been twice the first time and I'll I can give a small shout out. It's a program called Germany Close-Up where American Jews are subsidized through the German government to go to Germany.
Nicole Kelly:It's an amazing trip. Is there an age cap on this program that I am interested in now? I?
Elizabeth Kamens:actually don't think there is.
Nicole Kelly:That's amazing. What is this?
Elizabeth Kamens:called. It's called Germany Close-Up Okay, great. And there's different organizations that it will be affiliated with. So I went with I think it was like the Federation of Pittsburgh on my trip. So, like different organizations will kind of connect.
Elizabeth Kamens:So I went on that trip in 2015. And originally I had heard about it, but the itinerary also went to my grandfather's hometown. So I was like, oh, this is perfect. So you spend a long amount of time in Berlin, like about a week, and then go to Frankfurt and then Heidelberg and Worms, which is where my grandfather was from. So during that trip we went to the Rashi Synagogue and after the Holocaust, the survivors of Worms put together a big, basically like commemoration and memorial for the individuals that were lost in their community. So I was able to see that that you know my grandfather had kind of taken a part in helping form and you know my great grandmother and my great uncle were on this wall in the synagogue. So that was really meaningful. But in terms of because it was a group trip, it wasn't, you know, I saw the area and I saw the town, but it wasn't that detailed, you know. But in terms of because it was a group trip, it wasn't, you know, I saw the area and I saw the town, but it wasn't that detailed, you know, in terms of like, oh, this is where my grandfather lived and this is where their house was, and that kind of thing. So it was really a fabulous experience, though, and I found, you know, the German people that I encountered to be really warm and welcoming, and especially the younger generations that were, as I'm, a grandchild of a survivor, grandchildren of potentially Nazis, so it was a really powerful, interesting, eye-opening trip.
Elizabeth Kamens:And then, in 2018, this is a very interesting story. So my mom received a Facebook message from someone who lived in California and asked are you Rudy Herz's daughter? And it turns out that this individual his name is Sandy Jacoby, he lives out in California, he was going through his father's belongings and found a photo that had my grandfather in it and his father, and they were both in army uniforms, so after the war. So my mom replies back yes, I am. And Sandy tells her that there's a book being written about the Jews of this particular of the Rhineland, which is the area in Germany, and that this photo was going to be featured in this book and would we want to come to?
Elizabeth Kamens:I mean, they went back and forth a bit more. But you know, would we be interested in coming for this weekend to Germany for a few days for this like book reception? So we said sure. So that was actually the second time I went and it was, you know, a very quick trip. But we kind of explored the surrounding towns near my grandfather's and we went to the cemetery where his father, so my great grandfather, was buried. The headstone was still there, which was unbelievable.
Nicole Kelly:That's amazing considering the history of everything that happened to Jewish cemeteries.
Elizabeth Kamens:No, exactly Exactly so. It was still there and then through another organization, on one of the days that we had free. I mean, this is a really remarkable organization, this group of all non-Jews, all non-Jews in Worms and the surrounding areas call themselves I think it's the committee, the 9th of November Committee and they've taken upon themselves to research the Jewish history in the town and note all of the homes that used to be Jews, and really, just like the history of allallnacht and also throughout Germany, well, throughout Europe, there are what's called Stolpersteins, which are like the.
Nicole Kelly:They're translated to stumbling blocks. Yeah, the stumbling blocks, the gold, which are not in Munich, by the way. They don't have them in Munich and that's a whole like thing. Oh, I did not know that. I've never been to.
Elizabeth Kamens:Munich. Yes, okay, that's very interesting, wow, I mean they have them in other cities throughout Europe too, but I mean it's mainly started in Germany from my understanding. But so you know, this committee also helps put these stones in for where they learned that the families had lived. So for my great uncle and great grandmother they had stones that were stepping stones that were placed and they were there for the ceremony because there was no direct descendants that could be there. So it's an amazing organization. One of the individuals that's involved, her name is Inga May.
Elizabeth Kamens:So on one of the days that I was on this trip and I went with my mother and sister, she took us around the whole town for the whole day, you know, showing us. Well, now it's a bank, but this is where your grandfather used to live and this is the town and it's a walking tour. And we met with other individuals of the of the um organization who came out and had lunch with us and even though they couldn't even speak English and we couldn't speak German, it was a really. It was a really amazing experience to have these people who, you know, might not have any connection or might've had a connection, who knows but just out of the goodness of their hearts are involved in this organization to kind of restore and remember the Jewish communities in these, in this town.
Nicole Kelly:It's really interesting to me, kind of speaking of this generational trauma. Like you know, when we were in Germany we had tour guides who were about our age and them, you know, thinking about their grandparents. You know, my one of my mom's father fought in Germany in world war two and didn't talk about what he saw.
Patrick Kelly:So I don't know too many things it was apparent.
Nicole Kelly:I mean, I don't know, it must have been pretty traumatic, um, but uh, you know, thinking about their grandparents fighting in the war and how they feel about that, and then the guilt that you feel, but also, like, I remember reading an article once about a woman who, um was very close with her grandmother.
Nicole Kelly:I think she was american, but her grandmother was a nazi like she was a member of the nazi party and trying to kind of in head work out this woman that she knew and grew up with, who loved her and was caring and giving but was also a Nazi. So, you know it's kind of I. You know it's so I again. The idea of this generational trauma and the psychological effects of everything that happened in World War II is super interesting to me and I wish, I wish, there was more research about this. Yes, I know, yeah. I can get another yet another book I get to write um.
Patrick Kelly:I've got all these ideas.
Nicole Kelly:I've got all these ideas and not enough free time, but but, you know, maybe that this organization is is kind of an offshoot of that of people trying to, in their mind, right the wrongs of maybe something that their parents or grandparents might have done um I think that's really lovely, that they took you on that tour and you were able to see all of that and that was still there because I know in certain parts of europe like stuff's not there anymore oh, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, no, it was.
Elizabeth Kamens:it was really great, um, so, you know, really just a wonderful warm reception from all of the all of the non-Jewish Germans that we met along the way. It was really, it was honestly very remarkable and, um, we still talk about the trip like frequently, about how wonderful of an experience it was.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, I think, with the exception of like one person, everybody we met in that one tour guide at Dachau who I this guy was crazy. Um, he he's like I don't know if you're gonna use this, but we took this tour of Dachau, just so you know. We took this tour of Dachau and this guide. We were there for hours and they really only focused on the fact that it was a camp for political prisoners and then, like, jumped to the end of the war and about an an hour into the tour, patrick turned to me and he goes do you notice? He hasn't said the word Holocaust or Jew once.
Nicole Kelly:And then I was like yeah, and then like it was just like kind of offensive, and I actually ended up writing a letter to the owner of the company, who came up with some like well, this is the history. Then it's like, yeah, this is part of the history and yes, it was the first concentration camp, but it was for political prisoners, but also like a bunch of Jews were murdered there as well.
Patrick Kelly:And that's also important to talk about.
Nicole Kelly:But like here, you can tell your part of the story, because I did. This is yes.
Patrick Kelly:No, so we were in a. Rather I know you can't see me, sorry, we were in a rather large group and the tour was kind of a mess to begin with.
Patrick Kelly:We we were supposed to take a bus out there. A train, no, no, no. We were supposed to take a bus out there, but something happened with the bus, so they ended up buying us all train tickets. Now, the irony of a lot of this is not lost on me. So we end up all getting shoved onto this commuter train, which didn't have enough seats, and everybody's standing in the aisles Wow.
Patrick Kelly:All crammed together trying to go out to Dachau. Then they get us off of the train to shove into a public transportation bus, you know which. Again, we are like a New York subway car.
Patrick Kelly:You know all kind of crammed together on this you know bus to then drive to the gates of Daco. Then the group that we're with, a lot of Americans and a lot of Americans who are, you know, from the South and clearly not Jewish, and clearly maybe don't know what the history of this location actually is and what actually happened at this location.
Patrick Kelly:So, as we were going through and the guides giving the tour, a woman keeps asking, kept asking him. Well, because he was saying he would. He was basically describing well, this camp was only men and they would bring people in and if you were a child you were taken away, and that's really all that he would say about it. And she kept asking well, what did they do with the kids after? Well, they took them away. Where did they go? He's like well, if you were under 14, then you really were taken away. You weren't, you weren't.
Patrick Kelly:You know this was a working camp, so people would work here, and that you know they didn't need kids, so they, they would take away. And she just kept asking over and over and over again. It was probably probably the fifth or sixth time she asked. I finally just turned to her and went they killed them, they just murdered the children, they shot them, they took them in the back and shot them. That's that's what they did with the kids. And she was just kind of like, oh, but the guide was just too afraid or didn't want to reveal that part of the history.
Patrick Kelly:He just kind of was it felt like he was almost covering it up or almost trying to make allusion to it, without being blunt, you know, by saying, oh well, they would take them away or they would never be seen again, or they would do that, but not, not in so many words. That would be so forward that people would you know, people who don't know the history would understand.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yeah, Wow, I mean, you can't rewrite the history. Yeah, it's the history.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, exactly so because of that I had this whole conversation about like maybe this guy's grandparents were Nazis.
Patrick Kelly:Who knows, like if he lived there.
Nicole Kelly:Like the whole thing, but it was and were Nazis. Who knows if he lived there the whole thing. And then he went on a tangent about how at the end of the war they were using children as guards and then the Americans killed them when they came and I'm like am I supposed to feel bad about this? It's like a weird interesting thing.
Nicole Kelly:But other than that guy, everyone else in Germany that we came across was really lovely, and then when we got to Poland, it was very interesting to see about how they talked about the Germans and all of that, and this was around the time that they outlawed, saying Polish death camps. I think that had just happened when we went, so there was a lot of feelings involving this. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure I've never been to Poland. Poland, first of all, like all the Holocaust history aside, is beautiful and it's very cheap.
Nicole Kelly:And I recommend going to Poland all the time to people, and especially maybe not right now, I don't know, but Krakow is beautiful. It's the only medieval town square that wasn't destroyed during World War II. I don't know, I think it's the only one. So there's this medieval marketplace with the old stalls and it's really beautiful and it's yeah. I recommend Poland to everybody. Not just because I want to end up taking tour groups there and to the camps but, I loved Poland. It was great.
Patrick Kelly:Yeah, that's amazing.
Nicole Kelly:Yes, so kind of going back on subject, if someone is interested in starting to learn about the Holocaust, what material would you direct them to? Maybe interviews or books, or maybe even, you know, coming to one of your lectures? I think might be a good place as well.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yeah. So I would say, depending upon where you live, I would encourage you to go to a museum. To start.
Nicole Kelly:We have a really nice one downtown.
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, amazing, and I think it's excellent. They do an excellent job of sharing the Holocaust and the history and what happened, and I was just there last year but hadn't been in like decades, and you know, the exhibits are new and it's it's, it's really one of the things. Well, done?
Nicole Kelly:I like that they do. Is they talk about european jewelry before the war? And I feel like a lot of museums don't do that, not only because I think is it more emotionally effective to talk about well, this is what it was and this is what happened, but I think it humanizes a little bit yes, and they have some really cool artifacts. And then they also do the Jews after the war, which I think is also really cool, and they have a good gift shop, and I love a gift shop.
Elizabeth Kamens:No, yes, and it's just. It's a really beautiful space, you know, in terms of the museum and the location and all of that. So I would say, if you're in New York, you know, definitely take a trip to the Museum of Jewish Heritage in Battery Park. And if you're not, you trip to the Museum of Jewish Heritage in Battery Park. And if you're not, you know a lot of these museum websites have significant and comprehensive history as well, like the United States Holocaust Museum in Washington DC is a phenomenal resource and they have a lot as well.
Elizabeth Kamens:But I think, you know, I think books are also a great place to start, and it can be historical fiction even, because, you know, a lot of novels are based on true stories and you can learn a lot from that as well. So I think you know that's another really good place to start. And there's some recent TV series even that have been made from books, or just TV series that I think are also really good places to start. Like there was the show or the limited series last year about Miep Gies and who a little light, who she hid the Frank family in Amsterdam. I mean I thought that was a really great. I mean, you know, obviously tragic but very good depiction of like both sides and and uh, just the the whole experience almost, and, um, I know there was another book that I just made into a- series.
Nicole Kelly:They have a couple coming out. The tattooist of Auschwitz is coming out. There's been some controversy about that book and you can Google that if you're curious friends I haven't read that.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, yeah, it's very like. I guess people you know and that's this is. I want to say this to anybody listening holocaust testimony is very personalized and everybody's experience was different, so it's really hard for people in my in my opinion, it's really hard for me when people are like, well, this was not what happened, but this, if this is a true story or based on a true story, this is what happened to this person. It'd be like me saying, well, what happened to your grandfather isn't what happened to refugees. So I feel like that was the kind of the controversy involving the tattooist of Auschwitz, because I guess this specific prisoner lived in better conditions and there were some weird things.
Nicole Kelly:There's also one that just came out this week called we Were the Lucky Ones, which is about a family of survivors, so there's a lot of. And then there's that movie about with Anthony Hopkins that guy. So there's a lot of stuff coming out, which is good. I feel like there's never, the Holocaust makes great media, so I feel like there's never a lack of that coming out, it's true.
Elizabeth Kamens:It's true, it's true, and I did read that book. We Were the Lucky One, so it was an excellent book. So I'm sure I mean the series will probably be good. But I mean I think all of that people can learn from and, you know, take something away from. So it depends, if you really want to go into how deep you want to dig in terms of the facts. But you know, obviously, obviously I didn't see Schindler's List until I was an adult, but you know, much more recently even. But I think that is you know, if you really want to learn what happened, I think that is a very powerful depiction which my sister has not seen.
Nicole Kelly:Still, if you're listening, I keep saying every time she's here or I'm home, we should watch it. And she's like I need to be in a very specific mood and I'm like I don't know if you're ever in a mood to watch Schindler's List, like I don't think you wake up one day and you're like you know what I'm going to do today.
Elizabeth Kamens:This. You know what I mean, exactly, exactly, and actually I saw it. It was an anniversary showing at the Beacon Theater in New York, where they had the cast, including Steven Spielberg, come and speak, and I figured you know what. I haven't seen it. So this is a good opportunity because it's you know, you're not watching it at home like on the couch, you're watching it in a huge theater with, you know, hundreds of people, thousands of people. So that was when I saw it. That's a very good.
Nicole Kelly:first watching of Schindler's List story. Mine was not that exciting. I think I was like by myself at my parents' house and I was like well, I think I'm interested in watching this right now and then I was horrified by myself, which you know, I think, when it comes to certain things like that, like maybe you don't want a communal experience, it's like it's different. Um, yes it's.
Elizabeth Kamens:That's true. That's a really good point, and it just depends on what you're looking for and and what you're trying to learn.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, so let's talk about you for a second. You have a very interesting job, I think, so how did you? What made you decide to become a lawyer, and how did you end up at your current position? You would obviously share what you do, sure.
Elizabeth Kamens:So, yes, I'm a lawyer and I work as an assistant district attorney at the Bronx District Attorney's Office in the Homicide Bureau.
Elizabeth Kamens:So I, you know just, I think a lot of my strengths played into going into law school, like being good at speaking and reading and writing, and really you know a lot of strengths, help, you know, going into law school and becoming a lawyer.
Elizabeth Kamens:But I think at the time I felt, you know, I was encouraged, I should say, as that is a good path for me and for what my background and interests were, and I was always a good student. So when I got to law school though I really had no idea what type of lawyer I wanted to be and I think you know I did the idea of helping people with the law was always there. And I, you know, obviously it's nice to, you know, go into corporate law and you know you're always like helping someone in some capacity. But I think in the back of my mind, in the very beginning of law school, they had us write on note cards like what do you want to do when you graduate? And like what do you think you want to do in terms of like, how you want to use the law and I actually wrote on the card like help people in some way.
Nicole Kelly:So I think that was. That's rare for a lawyer. I feel like a lot of people would be like make a lot of money. Exactly, exactly.
Elizabeth Kamens:So I mean, obviously that is important and nice and you know you need to live. But then I still wasn't really sure and I realized, you know, litigation would probably be a good fit because, again, I really liked public speaking and I didn't get nervous when I was up speaking in front of people. But then a lot of my classes I found to be very challenging. Oddly, except for criminal law and for whatever reason, those were the classes it just clicked and I realized, oh, I could be an assistant district attorney and like really help people in terms of being giving them a voice, bringing justice, and it just kind of aligned with, like, a lot of the values I had. In addition, I, you know, had an internship in at the Philadelphia district attorney's office and I was like this is exactly what I want to do, like I don't see anything else that I really see myself doing which is very specific, and so then I really just pursued getting a job at a district attorney's office when I graduated.
Nicole Kelly:That's crazy. I couldn't deal with your job. I feel like I I'm sure, like I was saying I think you've probably seen some insane things and dealt with all that. Is it really like super high pressure, like I've?
Elizabeth Kamens:Yes, no, it is. I mean it also is very, it's, it's intense. You know there's really not as you saw before. You know I'm always getting calls and messages and you're kind of never really off, but also you're always thinking about things like what have I forgotten? What do I need to do? What's the next step? So you know, I think a lot of law and being an attorney is high pressure, but I think it's also like people's lives. You know it's. People are in jail.
Elizabeth Kamens:There are victims of crimes you know now I'm dealing with homicides so sadly the victims are no, can't have no voice to speak for themselves. But you know, before I'd have victims of attempted murders and shootings and slashings and you're like, well, you know these are such tragic situations and a lot of them are also immigrants and I think you know, coming from like the background with my grandparents, I obviously can't relate I was born in America but I feel for their experiences and they don't know how to navigate the system and it's so hard and overwhelming and maybe they're injured and they can't work anymore and like and that's. You know I don't deal with a lot of like helping them with resources, but I feel like I talked to them enough. I knew I just I have like such empathy and sympathy for what they're going through, because a lot of the time they don't take it upon themselves. You know, it's like wrong place, wrong time, um. So yes, it can be, it can definitely be stressful, but you know, look, every job has some measure of stress.
Nicole Kelly:Some more than others. So this last portion of my show we like to call this my version of the actor's studio, if you ever watch that. These are just kind of short form questions and they're a little fun because sometimes we have serious discussions like we did. So I like to end on a lighter note. So what is your favorite Yiddish word?
Elizabeth Kamens:I feel like I say oy, vey the most. I mean it's just so all-encompassing. What other word in the English language can encapsulate oy, oy, vey? But I also think there's some other words that are really powerful all-encompassing that we just don't have similar words for. Like chutzpah, that's a great one. Love that Mench, you know again like just a really good, noble person, tying it back to 3GNY. We always say like we're such a menchy organization in terms of the type of person that's involved. And yeah, I think those are some of my favorite ones.
Nicole Kelly:What is your favorite Jewish holiday?
Elizabeth Kamens:Rosh Hashanah, and I would say, because it's the start of the new year, it's a fresh start.
Nicole Kelly:So I know we talked about not being into themed bat mitzvahs, but if you were to have, let's say, we have someone gives you a big budget to throw a big blowout for your, your, your re-bat mitzvah, your, you know, um, what would your theme be?
Elizabeth Kamens:Oh gosh that's a good question. I would say, let's go with ice cream flavors. That's not what I've gotten. I mean, I love ice cream too.
Nicole Kelly:There is something. Well, I guess my sister doesn't like ice cream because milk makes her stomach upset.
Patrick Kelly:But most people.
Nicole Kelly:I think like ice cream. What profession other than your own would you want to attempt?
Elizabeth Kamens:I've always been interested in journalism and I think I studied it a bit in college and I think it's in some ways similar to what I do right now.
Nicole Kelly:If heaven is real and God is there to welcome you, what would you like to hear them say?
Elizabeth Kamens:Oh, wow. I would say first of all I would like to see the relatives that I've lost and be reunited with them, and I think that would be enough. But I also, you know, so many people say, how could there be a God if so many bad things happen Tying it back to our whole conversation how could there be a God if the Holocaust happened and six million Jews were murdered? I think you have to say you know, god created man. There is good and there is evil, and things happen because evil overrides good. And I think sometimes we just don't know why bad things happen. But we just have to have faith that things will work out. And if I were to meet God, I would like him to affirm that Awesome, all right.
Nicole Kelly:Well, thank you so much for joining me. This has been She brew in the City and I am Nicole Kelly. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed that episode. Since I interviewed Elizabeth, we have some updated statistics about 3GNY. She told me that for the 2023-2024 school year, they did 131 virtual presentations and 135 in-person presentations in school. They've reached 1,376 students at a mix of public and private schools and currently have 6,200 people on their mailing list or affiliated as members. If you're interested in becoming a member of 3GNY, be sure to check out their website and sign up for their events. Thank you to everyone who participated in the Instagram giveaway this past week. Please be sure to follow me on Instagram for future giveaways, as well as fun pictures and videos. I'm going to be doing a lot more videos now that I'm not a full-time student and I have a little more time. Please be sure to follow me on TikTok as well, and you can also DM me if you have any questions, suggestions or want to be a guest yourself. Thank you so much for listening.
