Shebrew in the City
Shebrew in the City is a podcast exploring all things Jewish. Combining interviews and informational episodes, join Nicole Kelly as she discusses her journey with motherhood, spirituality, and everything from Hanukkah to the Holocaust. Giving a voice to modern Jews and spreading love and joy, whether you're Jewish, Jew-ish, or not anything resembling Jewish at all, there's something here for everyone.
Shebrew in the City
"Let's Talk About Sex!" - An Interview with Logan Levkoff (Part 2)
Uncover the strategies to maintain intimacy amidst the whirlwind of parenthood with Dr. Logan Levkov, who offers salient advice on nurturing closeness even when life's demands seem insurmountable. Learn how to transform the routine chore of scheduled sex into a fulfilling experience and explore alternative acts of pleasure that keep the spark alive. As we navigate the challenges of conceiving and parenting, discover the magic of creating a distraction-free sanctuary and why a touch of intimacy can be the key to better days.
Our episode takes a turn into broader societal conversations, focusing on the profound impacts of the Me Too movement and the repeal of Roe v. Wade on sexual health education. Through honest dialogue, we address the evolving landscape of consent and mutual respect, emphasizing the need for open communication in relationships. Additionally, we examine the unique intersections of sex, Judaism, and stereotypes, challenging media portrayals and exploring the dynamics of Jewish practices.
In a heartfelt reflection on Jewish identity and resilience, we tackle complex narratives, from confronting antisemitism to embracing Jewish womanhood in modern society. Through humor and creativity, we talk about personal experiences from her trips to Israel that reveal the strength and hope found in community, even amidst adversity. With a mix of cultural insights and personal stories, this episode promises a rich exploration filled with honesty and inspiration.
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looking for tips and tricks on a new city. Top dog tours is the best place to check out walking tours. We are in boston, philadelphia, toronto and new york city. Visit us on topdogtourscom to book your tour today and check us out on social media for offers, discounts and pictures. So this is part two of my interview with dr logan levkov. I hope you enjoy it. So we've noticed that when you are trying to conceive, sometimes sex can be like a terrible.
Logan Levkoff:It can be terrible. It's terrible. There's a lot of pressure, there's it is.
Nicole Kelly:It's terrible. There's a lot of pressure there's, you know, there, there it's just, it's like scheduled too, which is nobody wants to be like okay, well, these are the days we need to have sex, and I feel like that's something that I'm curious about. If there's a couple who is trying to conceive, especially if you're having fertility problems, you know, and it's like a year in and you know, because a lot of couples they try to have sex, you know like naturally conceive for more than a year before the start of fertility treatments. What's your advice for these people, because it can be very difficult.
Logan Levkoff:Sex, goal-oriented sex for the purpose of conception is brutal. It is a chore, it feels like a job. It does not feel anything like a sexual, intimate, pleasurable experience. So first thing to know is don't feel guilty if that is your experience, because that's what most people are experiencing, but no one likes to talk about it, right? I think the other piece of it is we need to think about what are the little things we can do to make it feel more intimate.
Logan Levkoff:By the way, having pleasure like real pleasure is a part of that, right. There's no reason why you can't, and it doesn't necessarily have to be an orgasm, but it certainly could be, or anything leading up to it. It should still be something that you enjoy and, by the way, that kind of relaxation also helps everything too, right. So there is that, or the way in which you set up your room. I always laugh and it's so silly, but you know what's really not sexy when you are having some kind of sexual experience. You turn over and in your eyeline is like a picture of your family or religious iconography or your kids Like that's miserable right.
Logan Levkoff:So there are things we can do to create environments around us that at least make it feel slightly sexier for lack of a better word instead of like an institutional job.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, Is that also your advice to parents you know, who aren't trying to conceive, but try and keep an active sex life? Like don't have a picture of your, of your two year old, next to your bed, or maybe your grandmother or you know a cross or whatever your religious affiliation is on the wall.
Logan Levkoff:Yeah, I think in general, like, look, I am never going to be that sexuality professional that says, take your TV out of your bedroom because I love my TV in my bedroom and I will never take it out. I'm sorry, beg, scream, whatever. It's never coming out of my bedroom, I love it. So that's my, I mean my, guilty pleasure. But yeah, I mean, if you're, how sexy are you going to feel if you're looking at your parents Like you're how, how sexy are you going to feel if you're looking at your parents like you're sitting up, someone is on top of you or vice versa, and you're like looking at your in-laws, like that's not, like that's not really. No, really exciting, no, it's not. Yeah, is there other than?
Nicole Kelly:other than taking away the pictures from your in-laws? What advice do you have for parents, especially of young children, when you're exhausted all the time and sometimes kids are sleeping in your bed and you know how to keep an active sex life with that?
Logan Levkoff:What would be your advice? There are a lot of different sex acts that still end in pleasure. That don't have to be, you know, sexual intercourse if you don't have time or the space for it, because someone is sleeping between you. There is the most boring saying in the sex ed relationship space, which is the concept of scheduling sex, scheduling a date night. It is so painfully boring and horrific as a concept.
Logan Levkoff:However, the reason why everyone tells you it is because it works, because you are actively putting aside time. This is going to be the. This is going to be the time that is going to be for us. And also, I do think that even when you're tired and I'm not saying that we should give in to each other's needs all the time However, a little bit of intimacy and pleasure like begets more, like it winds up being really good. So, yeah, maybe one day you wake up 20 minutes earlier, you know, and fool around before the alarm like your real alarm clock and, yes, will you be tired? Yes, you probably will be, but within five minutes you will be a hell of a lot less tired and a hell of a lot more aroused, and it will feel great for the rest of your week.
Nicole Kelly:And probably have a better day in the long run.
Logan Levkoff:Yes.
Nicole Kelly:Yes, yes, so this is not a pleasurable question, really really pivoting. How do you think the repeal of Roe v Wade has affected the necessity of sex education and safe sex? Because I love how outspoken you are about being pro-choice on your Instagram and I know that a lot of people are afraid to talk about being pro-choice because of all the things out there. But how is you know in the past I think it's been almost two years now how has that affected the way that you talk about sex and just sex education in general?
Logan Levkoff:Truth be told, it hasn't changed what. It hasn't changed what I do, because my I believe that it's important to have know all of the options and all of the potential outcomes, regardless of whether or not your state gives you the right to bodily autonomy. So my information that I impart doesn't change. However, I do have lots of conversations these days around how current events and laws impact people's sexual health, and that's an important conversation to have. So, depending on where you live and, by the way, we know what's happening in Alabama- now with fertilized embryos being people right.
Logan Levkoff:So those are great conversations because it starts getting young people to think not just think about what things mean, but choices they make in the future. What does that mean for them as an individual? What would that mean in a partnership? What would it mean if they went to college in another state? So there are lots of critical thinking skills that can come out of talking about political issues that I find highly problematic. So I think that while the information I impart you know just my general sex ed information doesn't change I guess I'll tweak my answer a little bit it has provided me opportunities to get people to think about how changing laws impact sexual health, how we can't say that sexual health isn't political, because there are decisions that get made all of the time that impact what you do and how you do it and your access to things, even if you had no say over it. So that's an important skill for people to develop.
Nicole Kelly:Do you think kind of on the flip side of that, the Me Too movement has affected the way people talk about sex?
Logan Levkoff:I mean, I have to tell you these days I'm very angry with the Me Too movement because it seems to be Me Too is only important unless you are Israeli.
Nicole Kelly:Yes, we're going to talk about that in a little bit. Okay so so, oh good.
Nicole Kelly:So I mean I'm not a we're hitting the hard questions here because I I'm so glad, I'm so glad that we're we're having this, but I just I remember there was kind of this, because I see a whole slew of things on the internet, after the Me Too movement kind of happened, of men being like well, now I'm afraid that any sort of sexual experience I have with a woman, she can turn around and say that I didn't want it. You know, I think that there was kind of not that I necessarily agree with that. I feel like consent is super important and you can make consent sexy if you want.
Logan Levkoff:But I feel like it kind of changed the narrative, especially, I think, maybe for young men, about sex, the conversations around Me Too and consent. How Me Too changed our global conversations is well, everyone was talking about it. Everyone was talking about it in high profile. People were getting you know in hot water for doing things that they've done for years.
Nicole Kelly:Which were like not really secrets. No, no, no, right, and there were a lot of enablers in all of those dynamics right.
Logan Levkoff:Yeah, we're also responsible for creating those cultures. As sexuality educators, we are always talking about consent and the importance of having a voice and how to be the kind of person that someone is willing to share their body with. And so to me conversations if I ever hear someone say like, oh, obviously someone is going to say that something happened in order to get a man in trouble and obviously that is rooted in such misogyny it's horrific and I bristle at the thought. But if you are the kind, if you are a standup partner who values someone's voice, who asks the right questions, who says you know, I want to be respectful of your boundaries and vice versa, tell me, tell me what you want and what you don't want, and it's okay, no matter what then you are creating a dynamic where no one is deliberately going to get you into trouble because that's just a shitty like shitty.
Logan Levkoff:People would do that regardless of gender. That's not a gender thing. And if we're all honest and upfront about what we want and what we don't want, then we're actually breaking that cycle, because for years, people did talk about what they want. They made assumptions and went for it and then found it after Someone's like eh, we really wasn't into that.
Nicole Kelly:I think the idea of consent in the way that it is today is also very new, because I feel, like you just kind of I don't know, I'm trying to figure out a way to say this like of my generation, the idea of being like really honest about what you wanted and what you weren't comfortable with was not something that was really advocated for, if that makes any sense.
Nicole Kelly:Like you know, you were just kind of like, well, I guess this is the way that you know this, this is how this works, so that's what you're you're you're supposed to do, and I feel like there was a pressure to do things. So, I mean, I have, I have major issues with the movement as well for various reasons, but I think what did kind of come from the conversation was a, a solidarity between women, realizing that a lot of us have had sexual experience or unwanted sexual attention, and not making us feel alone, but also, you know, the idea of of, uh, consent and also like preventing mixed messages, because if you're like, hey, I'm not cool with this, like it's again, if you have a respectful partner, they're gonna be like okay, you know right, right, I mean, a lot of these conversations wind up being litmus tests for whether or not someone is a worthy sexual partner.
Logan Levkoff:Right, and sometimes and I'm outside of the Me Too movement we I think this, we in general need to do a better job at trusting our gut, you know, and when someone like is giving us clues that maybe they're not really concerned about our pleasure, what we want, instead of sickly crossing our fingers like maybe it'll work out, Maybe we should just realize ah, signs are not pointing in the right direction. I think I'm going to go meet someone else.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, which I think you need to. You need to know that you can do and it can be, you know, appropriate to do that.
Logan Levkoff:So let's talk Absolutely. And again I would just say this I think, similarly there are also experiences that are just kind of gray, for lack of a better term. You know experiences where, like, maybe you didn't really love it, but you didn't say something negative, the other person you're not really sure was into it too, Like not.
Logan Levkoff:there are also experiences that are not wonderful Right, that are not necessarily consent experiences, as much as they are just bad experience bad sexual experiences, and also that requires speaking up to to say what you liked and what you didn't like, right, or why you're not seeing someone else again. I think that's the problem is that we do a lot of, we want to do a lot of mind reading where we think we're just going to like miraculously know what does this person want, what are they not? What feels good, what doesn't feel good? Are they going to let me know if something hurts? And inevitably people don't, because unless we feel empowered to advocate for ourselves, we're going to say nothing. So my take on it is always have those tough conversations, acknowledge and be upfront about the fact that this conversation is hard for me to have, but I like you enough and there are things I'd like to do with you, so I'm going to have it.
Nicole Kelly:So let's talk about sex within Judaism. So I know from my limited knowledge of kind of sex and physical touch within the Orthodox community they have very specific rules regarding sex and physical touch. So a lot of for those of you that don't know a lot of Orthodox Jews will not touch people of the opposite sex who they aren't directly related to until they're married. And then, even when they are married, there are these family I think they call them like family purity laws, where if a woman is menstruating or has just finished menstruating, husband and wife won't touch each other. And one of I don't want to say the reasons they say for that is to prepare couples for a time when intimacy isn't like a hallmark of their relationship. So it kind of, I guess, gets them ready for when they're not having sex, which I don't. I see your face. You're like um, are there? Is there legitimately any merit in that? Or is this just kind of what they've decided? That is what they're going to do?
Logan Levkoff:decided. That is what they're going to do. I have to be honest, I'm not an expert in Orthodox Judaism, so I'm the wrong person to offer professional guidance in communities whose sexual values might be different than mine. That being said, I do think that there can be a lot of excitement and eroticism in waiting and building excitement and having limited touch. It's just not common for lots of people, right? But I can't say that someone's experience isn't going to be highly erotic. If they've, if they've had to avoid touch, I mean maybe it's super hot and amazing. Right, it's real. I I would hope it would, yes to be. But again, this is why you know, when sexual issues emerge within the orthodox community, there are some amazing, amazing Orthodox sex therapists who are so well equipped and skilled in navigating these issues. Because, obviously, the lens through which I see it is a very secularized, sex-empowered, sex-forward lens, so my version is going to be very skewed.
Nicole Kelly:Is this kind of sex therapist within the Orthodox community a newer thing? I would, as I'm assuming it's. Women are talking to women and men are talking to men.
Logan Levkoff:I mean all the most of the people I know are are women. Um, and they're amazing. I mean there there is an entire community of Orthodox sexuality therapists. Really, I mean, yeah, it is quite extraordinary because there are complexities and dynamics within Orthodox partnerships that are not like the average you know relationship that we talk about here.
Nicole Kelly:It's very true. So, as two Jewish women, I think we've probably been very aware that Jewish women in media are often depicted as prudish and non-sexual beings. Why do you think this is, and what can we as Jewish women do to break this stereotype in our everyday life? Because I feel like there's, you know, like a great show that was really great about kind of breaking the stereotype was Marvelous, mrs Maisel. But that's really the only time I've seen an example of an attractive young woman who is Jewish showing that she likes sex or was sexual. I really can't think of any other, you know media where a woman's presented as Jewish and as a sexual person.
Logan Levkoff:There's no doubt that the character or sorry, the caricature of Jewish women is often overbearing, neurotic, helicoptering all things to all people, but not necessarily sexual, and it's frustrating. It's frustrating because it's actually not at all indicative of a single Jewish woman I know. However, it was very much my understanding on some of those old comics, those old images, that old, you know, yiddish theater. That's where some of that had come from and, by the way, there is a place for that.
Logan Levkoff:But I think there's also an opportunity for us to reclaim what sexual Jewish woman looks like, simply by existing in our natural state, which is sexual being, state, which is sexual being, and recognizing that we're not separating our Judaism from our sexual side. People laugh all of the time. I absolutely do what I do for a living because it is rooted in my Jewish values, my belief in pleasure and equity and education and the intimacy of relationships Like that's all of them and the belief that everyone has the right to live and thrive with dignity Like those are all my Jewish values too. So I think we just need to do a better job at saying like I am a proud sexual Jewish woman and I don't resemble the stereotypes, so maybe the stereotypes are inaccurate.
Nicole Kelly:So you talked about earlier about being very proudly Jewish, and I think this is something that, especially recently, a lot of people who are very active on social media have, I don't want to say, struggled with, but there's a lot of bad stuff out there. So what are some of the challenges that you face as a publicly Jewish woman who you know is well known within your industry and just in general, because we haven't talked about you know you being on numerous television shows and things like that, but what are the kind of the struggles of that, especially since October 7th, that you faced in being Jewish in general and pro-Israel?
Logan Levkoff:And, by the way, even like pro, like there's no other place. People use words pro or anti.
Nicole Kelly:I know it's so absurd right. Yeah.
Logan Levkoff:I am a proud Zionist. Zionism is literally rooted in everything that I do. Zionism is the self-determination movement for Jews in our ancestral homeland. Everything that I do Zionism is the self-determination movement for Jews in our ancestral homeland. It is a radical decolonization project and it is bastardized all the time by people who know nothing about Jews and nothing about Israel or the history. So there's that. That's my first blanket statement.
Logan Levkoff:Aggressive possibly, but that's literally where I'm living days in aggression. The challenges are both endless and endless. I am an expert in difficult conversations, as I shared early on, like I cut my teeth talking about sex and sexuality as a young person, not just online, but in TV and in person in classes, and I was always used to people writing horrible shit about me because I talked about sex for a long time. So I was used to it and I knew how to deal with the adversity. And, by the way, I'm probably a little bit of an intellectual masochist because I'm in this space. I love the fight I do. I was made for the fight, especially when I feel like I'm right, which is most of the time it's good to feel that you're right.
Logan Levkoff:Yeah, totally feel that you're right. Yeah, totally, but I never would have imagined that in 2024, the difficult conversation I would have to have or encourage people to have, would be around Judaism and Israel. I would have you could have told me that a million times over. I would have never believed it, never, never, never. So the challenges I have today are I mean, I get a lot of nasty, horrible, like death wishing things said about me pretty regularly, but again, sometimes you get used to it which is pathetic, pathetic and yet true. I mean they're not very creative.
Nicole Kelly:I have to say no, they're not or intelligent.
Logan Levkoff:No, they don't know. There's a lot of spelling and grammatical problems. They're like they use the same lines over and over again. They're not really creative. I feel like maybe I would give them a little more credit if they could come up with something new. But I mean, an oven joke is like it's. You know how 1940s really is handled at this point.
Nicole Kelly:I had someone say something like that to me on the street and I was like, I mean, it was horrifying because I was giving a tour at the time, but it's just like that's where we're going with this.
Logan Levkoff:Right. So there's and, by the way, my making light of it isn't because I don't think it's serious, it's just I don't know another way to deal with it these days because it's everywhere, because if I let myself really wallow in some of it I don't think I'd be able to get out of bed. I mean, it's enough that the minute I wake up I put on armor Mental, less physical, but like I'm ready for a fight wherever I go these days, whether it's online, whether it's having to deal with some professor at my kid's schools that are saying something horrible, or a kid that calls them some horrible name, or whether it's wondering if the person sitting next to me on the subway sees my mug and David and wants to kill me, like all of that stuff. Like I have armor on the minute I wake up and it is a little exhausting. I'm not going to lie, but I try to make it more bearable by using a little bit of humor and grace.
Logan Levkoff:And so one of the things I've done is I've started to make content using the horrible things that people have said about me, because it is my way of controlling the narrative, and also using humor and a little bit of personality, and I also wanted to use it and this was way before October 7th to show my peers who told me I was crazy when I said that anti-Semitism was alive and kicking that.
Logan Levkoff:No, actually it's very much here and you don't have to look that far to find it. So October 7th unfortunately just put a giant, giant exclamation point a million times over on all of the things that I had been feeling, and it was an atrocious wake-up call. But, lesson learned, I got it Like I know who my friends are, I know who my enemies are, I know who has spoken out, I know who my friends are, I know who my enemies are, I know who has spoken out, I know who has said nothing. And I am and I'll use a word that people don't like using for women, but I'm going to use it anyway I can be a relentless bitch and you know what I'm going to remember I will never forget and I will make sure you don't forget either.
Nicole Kelly:Good for you for kind of turning this around and empowering yourself. I'm not the kind of person because I don't have 12,000 followers on Instagram. I have like less than 500 and I've started posting TikTok videos and it's like amazing how these people will find you and they'll just start. And I'm like I'm a nobody with. I have no, really no social media presence. I'm just starting to grow it and it's amazing how they'll find you and just start saying the craziest things. It's like a full-time job for them.
Logan Levkoff:That's true. You're not. First of all, you're not. No one is a nobody right Like platforms mean nothing, literally mean nothing.
Logan Levkoff:It's just to me, at the end of the day, regardless of what platform it's on, I don't really care what people say in response. It is my way of creating my own story, my own online journal for what I am experiencing at any given moment. Whether anyone likes it or doesn't like it, honestly, like I don't care. I do it because I feel compelled to create a story. That's my story and maybe if we change the way we think about it, then some of that stuff is easier to navigate.
Logan Levkoff:But I do acknowledge that in all of these years I have developed a very thick skin because I have had to, but I didn't always. There were times and it wasn't really during the. It didn't really have to do with Jew hatred or anti-Semitism or whatever, whatever term we want to use. It was really when I was on a TV show. I was on a show called Married at First Sight for the first three seasons, yes, which seems like a lifetime ago at this point and a rumor, some horrible rumor about my fellow peer, my professionals and I about our ethics, and it's because, apparently, facts don't matter.
Nicole Kelly:No one fact checks and definitions. Words don't have definitions anymore.
Logan Levkoff:No, no. So this rumor kind of like spread like wildfire and it showed up in all of these places and I was getting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of messages saying the most awful things about me. And the worst thing you could say about me back then was, you know, was to question my professional integrity, something I've worked so incredibly hard at and I was so crushed. And so my husband came home one day and I was on the couch it was like the middle of the afternoon. I was wasted and sobbing, like I had plowed through a couple of cocktails. I was like a Twitter open in front of me. I was just like hysteric, just crying, and he looked at me and, very much to his credit, he said what's going on? I said they're saying the most horrible things. I was amassed. And he said who and I think the name was some version of Cupcake Lover 405. And he's like whoa Cupcake Lover? Who is Cupcake Lover 405? And I said I have absolutely no idea, but they're saying all these terrible things. He said logan, first of all, if cupcake lover 405 met you on the street, would they punch you in the face or would they ask to take your picture? And I had this moment and I thought you know they're a fan of the show. Clearly I don't think they would punch me in the face and he's like, and this is who you're crying over. And I said me in the face and he's like, and this is who you're crying over. And I said, okay, so I think you might be right. I think you might be right. And he took my phone away from me for 24 hours till I, like, pulled myself together and it changed my perspective on everything.
Logan Levkoff:Now, that was when it was my professional integrity, my Judaism and my very proud Zionism, which I do think are very linked. I don't think you could really separate the two, as much as people would like to say you can. I don't think you can, but I feel like that is a different, deeply personal attack on me, one that I am fearless and very thick-skinned over, because I know what that means. Right, and that is something I am willing to fight to the end for. That is not something I'm going to be crying over. The only time I cried with that was when I realized that my field, the very progressive field of sexuality education, we're a group of Jew haters, but you know most of the other stuff. I'm just, my claws are out and I'm ready, so I ready.
Nicole Kelly:So I want to talk about what you just said, because the reports and even some of the video of the sexual violence that took place on October 7th is horrifying and I I've heard some stories I haven't watched any video because I I don't think I'm in an emotional place to do that and reportedly this is also still happening as well to the hostages. Do you think that people are ignoring this or saying it's not real because it's happening to Jewish women?
Logan Levkoff:Yes, yes, I do, I do. I think that there is absolutely no reason why we have given credibility to every single person who has spoken up, every single person, right, and, by the way, I'm not saying that we shouldn't validate people's claims. I'm not telling you that we shouldn't. But there is evidence, a lot of evidence. There is testimony, there is documentation from the actual people who perpetrated the crimes, right, gleefully engaging in what they are doing. And yet people are still saying I don't think it's true, there's no evidence.
Logan Levkoff:We would say this to no other group, you know, and at the end of the day, the issue is I and I've said it before, this is about Israel now, but it's not really about Israel. This is about Jews. This is about Jews Because, honestly, people are too dumb to know that there are other people other than Jews living in Israel and how diverse it is. It's how it's a breathtaking tapestry of diverse populations. But no one cares because it's called the Jewish state, right, so people assume it's only one group of people. But it is horrifying the lengths people will go to to turn themselves and twist themselves into pretzels to justify their behavior, and we would never do it with anyone else. And yet this is the most horrific documented acts of depraved sexual violence we probably have seen ever, ever, ever, ever.
Nicole Kelly:I think what's even more and you just mentioned this crazy to me is not the people necessarily denying it, but the people who are, like you said, justifying it, and I think that's so much worse and it's just, it's just sickening, like as a as a, not only like as a Jew, but like as a human being. It's like this whole, like resistance is justified when you're occupied. Call I don't. No, I don't think you know. Raping a woman until her pelvic bones are broken and then shooting her in the head is justified in any circumstance.
Logan Levkoff:Right. And also, by the way, those big words people are using actually are not relatable to this conflict at all, which is another piece of it. But also, in what other group would anyone ever say that that's okay, that rape is a legitimate war tactic?
Nicole Kelly:It's not.
Logan Levkoff:We would never say, we would never. I know like that's, we would never. No one would say it for anyone else, for anyone else. And there is a sense of oh no, it's not a sense, it's just a real feeling.
Logan Levkoff:For me, I feel betrayed on levels that I did not feel like I could possibly be betrayed on by professionals in my community. I mean my community, my professional community is all about believing people and consent and bodily autonomy and talking about, you know, healthy relationships and like all of the things that what happened on October 7th is literally antithetical to at its core. And yet my field is eerily silent. There's a lot of moral equivalencies and posturing and you know where is the evidence. And to me, this is a betrayal. It is.
Logan Levkoff:You know, I'm not one of those people who believes like when someone says words are violence, who believes like when someone says words are violence. But like this in this case, this is like a violent attack on me, when you can't bring yourself to condemn something because of who it happened to. But again, if I'm going to be a little snarky and which is often how I have to be now in order to navigate some of the feelings I have, my take on, it is okay. Lesson learned Good. You just told me who you were. Now I know I would much rather know who you are face to face than have you stab me in the back.
Nicole Kelly:Do you think that part of the reason that people are thinking this is justified is because there's this narrative that Jews are white and which is we know is not true? I love my favorite thing on Instagram is like people who are black and Jewish just like laughing at the white colonizer thing. Do you think that's part of it? Even though, like, I've literally seen pictures of hostages and like these people are of Mizrahi descent, like is that where this is coming from?
Logan Levkoff:A lot of it. So I think that, first of all, the average person has no idea who Jews are. No idea, they think we are solely a faith and not realizing that we were a faith.
Nicole Kelly:Last of all of the categories, we were a faith, it's true, I'm taking a Jewish history class now and that is like a big question is like is when did Judaism become a religion? Like what is a religion? And you know all of these things. So this is this is my, my, my P, my my, my professor, with a P June, june's history says the same thing, so it's very true.
Logan Levkoff:Yeah, I mean, we were a tribe, we're an ethnicity, we are people, we are also a faith. We cross all modern racial categories and other ethnic categories. It's, it's so silly and the people who you know think of us as being solely white. I mean, first of all, couldn't locate Israel on a map if their life depended on it. Right, wouldn't know the difference between, like if you saw an Israeli, from a Palestinian to a Druze, like Bedouin, would have no, literally no idea, couldn't tell the difference between anyone. But we've created this weird binary system of either you are oppressed or the oppressor. Right, you are a victim or you are a victimizer. And because the stereotypes here have been Jews that look like us, as opposed to showing the complexity and the diversity within Judaism, you know, people think that we're all, that Israelis and Jews are all white, despite the fact that you know we seem not to be white enough for certain groups of people.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, Like Nazis, we're white.
Logan Levkoff:When it's convenient, we're the only people who are too white for some right on the left, not white enough for people on the right. And so here we exist in this weird space where we are like conditionally white sometimes, but even saying that erases all of the people who don't look like us, who are Jewish, and there are plenty and plenty and plenty of those. So I think this is a much deeper problem. I think this is an institutional problem, this is an educational problem, and I don't think it's getting solved anytime soon. I think that what's happening in Israel is just the beginning. I think this is a, this is a. That's the frontline for now, but I think that what we are all going to have to deal with here, and what our kids are going to have to deal with and navigate, is a whole other type of war. It's scary and we should be prepared for it.
Nicole Kelly:I mean, you have a son in college, like I. I would be terrified if my child was in college right now and I was trying to explain to my sister cause she wasn't unaware. She was unaware of what was going on she was here last week of the crazy things that are happening on campuses. I mean, I'd be terrified, especially with some of the schools we mentioned, which are lauded as some of the greatest educational institutions in the entire world. The narrative that's going around and the things that I hear some public school teachers are saying in class or showing maps that have Palestine, and it's just like I feel like I'm living in a world where, like you said, facts aren't facts and words don't have definition. I got one of my college roommates got. I like I had to unfriend her on Facebook because she was trying to say well, I feel like it's an apartheid and I was like feelings are not facts.
Nicole Kelly:And here is my argument showing you it's not that and also that's not real. And I feel like I'd love, I'd love to have like a legitimate, intelligent conversation with somebody who has an opposing view, but I haven't been able to do that because they keep coming up with these like talking points that I can disprove within two seconds, but they're like but I feel this and it's like, well, I feel like I should be a millionaire, but that doesn't mean that it's real. You know what I mean, Right?
Logan Levkoff:You can feel however you want, but the I mean, if you stepped foot in there for a hot minute, you would see that like can't call it apartheid.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, it's not.
Logan Levkoff:I saw someone.
Nicole Kelly:I saw someone that was like I'm driving past the Islamic art museum in my apartheid state on the way to work and I was like I see you, sir, I see you, I see you.
Logan Levkoff:I just, I do, I do.
Logan Levkoff:I do appreciate the Jewish humor a little bit that's come out of this, because people are, you know, jews are really great about using humor as a healing source. But we need but. But here's the thing we need to, because then all we would be doing is wallowing in trauma indefinitely, and we can't, we can't live like that. So you know that's, we have to find strategies to manage it. And again, that doesn't mean we, we, we don't feel it, but but sometimes, at least within our own, within our own tribe, we use humor, because otherwise we're going to sit and cry to each other, and that's, that's a really hard thing. I mean, yes, I have a freshman and a freshman, so in college and in high school, but my kid has spent all of high school fighting this stuff. So, quite frankly, if anyone was prepared for college campus, it was him, far better prepared than most people were, and that's a horrifying thing to say that he honed his skills on fighting anti-Semitism in high school. But he did, but he did. And also, I think the other piece of it that people don't always realize is, if you want to raise and there are a lot of different ways to be a fighter, right, some people like to be lightning rods. Some people like to work behind the scenes. They're equally important. Jobs right, they're equally important. Not everyone has to be me, nor should be me, to be honest. There are people who do other things far better.
Logan Levkoff:But I would say all of the only reason we and our young people can be fighters, in whatever capacity they choose to fight, is when they know that the adults in their life have their back. That's the biggest thing. The reason my kids have been able to go toe-to-toe with people, with teachers, with professors, with administrators is because they knew that their family had their back. And if something happened, if they got in trouble, if they got expelled, if they got into a fight, I was going to make it an international incident and I still would right, because I'm not letting it go. This is too important and too many people spend too much time putting their heads down in the sand saying it's not so bad, don't make waves. It's only one comment, it was never only going to be one comment. So here's where we are. What do we do with that?
Nicole Kelly:It's my mother-in-law calls it being a mama bear or a lion being very protective of your children, and it's nice to know that they have that support, because I feel, like some, I want to be the kind of mother that when my daughter gets in a troubled situation, she's not going to think I'm scared, what my mom's going to think, but I need to call my mom because she'll know what to do, and I feel like that goes exactly with what you're saying, that you have your kids back.
Logan Levkoff:So yeah and, by the way, I love you I use that phrase all the time that I am like a. I am like a warrior lioness, like just and not like in a hovering way. But you know, if you cross the core values, or we're going to have an issue. We're going to have an issue. My young people will deal with it first, but if they, if they choose to bring me in, all bets are off, that's fair, that's fair.
Nicole Kelly:So I can't make any guarantees. So while we were talking I kind of like bullet pointed something that I hadn't thought about. But have you seen the show on Netflix, Big Mouth? Yes, what do you think about?
Logan Levkoff:Big Mouth.
Nicole Kelly:I feel like sometimes it can be even a little over the top, for you know, just in general, but I think in a lot of but I think in a lot of ways it's a very honest depiction of what it's like to be a teenager.
Logan Levkoff:So I think in so many ways it is so brilliant. It's how we as adults would look, exactly how we as adults would look back on adolescence, with all of the complexities and the hideous moments and the hysterical moments, and then, of course, it is also very over the top. So I have a lot of students, teenage students, who watch Big Mouth, who come with all sorts of information that isn't always accurate, and so my reminder to them is always okay, listen, you're going to watch what you're going to watch. I just need you to know that what you're seeing is not entirely representative. So if you have questions, I think you should come to me first. Yeah, so if you have questions, I think you should come to me first. Yeah, like, let's fact check, but look if it gets people talking and if it gets us talking right, because really it's not designed for teens, it's designed for us as adults. So if it reminds us of what those experiences were like and it helps us have a conversation with young people, then how awesome is that.
Nicole Kelly:I feel like a lot of it's stuff that I blocked out and I'm like, oh, yeah, that, but with a musical number, which is one of the things I love about that.
Logan Levkoff:And it's totally fun. I mean, and listen, I remember I think it was the second episode when Jessie gets her period and she's wearing white shorts and someone has to get like. I remember those moments. Those really like harrowing moments where you think the world is coming to an end, but but it's really a huge part of growing up, right, having that moment where you know you feel exposed and vulnerable and have to manage what, what, what, what are my next steps? That's a. That's a big, I mean, that's a big part of resilience, developing resilience too.
Nicole Kelly:You were recently in Israel and I know from looking at your social media you go quite a bit, but I feel like this was more of a different type of trip. So what did you do when and when did you? How recent was this and what did you do when you were there?
Logan Levkoff:So I've actually been there twice since October 7th. My last trip I came back five days ago. I was there for 10 days and I was there for 17 days. In December I was there for a volunteer mission for Jewish National Fund, usa. We were on two different trips, both volunteer missions, I feel like in December we were putting Band-Aids on things. We were like temporarily helping. We were doing all important things feeding soldiers, cooking, doing agriculture, going to the hospital, putting together gift boxes, working with evacuee families.
Logan Levkoff:This trip was a little different. We were getting kibbutzim ready for people to come back home, ready for people to come back home. You know, cleaning up, doing. You know the IDF has been there. There have been four months of weeds and mud and insects and you know, also doing agriculture. We were weeding onions. We were working with the Bedouin community in agriculture. There.
Logan Levkoff:I painted a bomb shelter in an indoor playground in Sderot, which was super meaningful because the kids were coming back to the community and needed a safe place. So this felt heavy. I'm not going to say it does not feel heavy, it feels very heavy, but it feels like rebuilding is taking place. But it felt it was a huge privilege to be there. Each time I've been, everyone is so surprised to see people Americans there, and they are so grateful that we're there. And my response is always when they ask, why are you here? My response is always when they ask why are you here, I say it feels important to be here. But the truth is and I share this as well is that, selfishly, I really should be thanking them too, because it feels very lonely being here lately and that I needed to be there and have my feet on the ground and my hands in the dirt to feel my people too, because at least there, you know, I don't put on the armor the same way it's the one place I really feel like I can breathe.
Logan Levkoff:And so it's kind of like a shocking statement for a Jew from New York City to say but but that's really how I feel these days, and I know I'm not the only one, because I was sitting yesterday at a coffee shop talking to someone and kind of filling them in on the college campus situation. I was talking about our family and a man was sitting next to us who was a little older than me and he looked at me in the middle of the conversation and said I'm so sorry to eavesdrop. I'm so impressed and in awe by what you're doing and your family and I just want to say thank you. And the man literally like, was crying, and I feel like that's where a lot of us are right now. We are all just about three seconds away from bursting into tears at any given moment. So I was there to bear witness. I was there to feel connection and to feel like I was doing something, because I felt so. I mean, pardon the sex related word, but I was feeling so impotent here for for so many weeks.
Nicole Kelly:I'm glad you were able to go and help and feel hopefully a little bit better about everything.
Logan Levkoff:Yes, yes, I mean I, I, I do it's, it's, it was hard, it's hard to leave. I mean there is a there's a lot of trauma. There was. There's incredible resilience and there was a lot of I mean, look, people still can't grieve yet, right, there are still 134 hostages. Which is crazy to me, there is still work going on.
Nicole Kelly:It's, it's just it's. I mean, I don't know about cause you're on the other side of the park, but I'm on the West side and I just I feel like I walk past these posters every day and I feel like I know these people and it's become really and I know that's the whole point of this but it's become really personal, like as a mother, as a Jewish person and as a woman, especially because that's a lot of who is still there and they say the reason they're not releasing them is because they don't want them talking about what's happened to them.
Logan Levkoff:Yeah, horrific, horrific, horrific things, horrific things, and the fact that that's not the first statement. People say bring the hostages home. You know, that's the other. I think when someone says to me how do you have conversations Like, how do you engage in a healthy discourse around this issue? Sometimes you can't, because to me, if the first statement isn't what happened was horrible, full stop period, the hostages need to come home, full stop period, then there's nothing else for us to talk about.
Nicole Kelly:Well, it's a lack of humanity in my opinion and I know that's like a really sweeping statement but it is Because I can still feel bad about the children and civilians in Gaza, because I'm a human being and I can feel multiple things at once. But if you're the kind of person who can't, it's a lack of humanity in my opinion and it's just really sad to see so many people who are so uneducated and don't understand and then they're just showing their lack of humanity and it's kind of depressing.
Logan Levkoff:It's brutal, though I would say maybe, if anything comes out of this, is that the Jewish community in the diaspora becomes stronger, recognizes who they are, recognizes this unbreakable connection to our homeland, that we are responsible for each other, that as much as Israel needs us right now, we need her too. I mean, history has shown us that time and time again and that maybe everyone here was getting a little complacent and we've just been reminded of who we are and why we need each other, and that's a really scary thing, but a really important thing historically. I think this is going to forever be a major and I hate the phrase inflection point because I feel like people use it all the time, but I think that this is one of those moments for the Jewish, the global Jewish community. I think there's a before and an after, and the entire global community will change.
Nicole Kelly:I yeah, no, I definitely agree, it's. I will have to do to say, though, that I am tired of living through these once in a lifetime crazy turning points. I'm a little, a little over, I understand.
Logan Levkoff:It's been exhausting.
Nicole Kelly:I'm not even 40 yet and I've dealt with this 9-11 couple wars in October, october 7, january 6. I'm just I'm done, I need, I want like a break end of January. So I'm just I'm done, I need, I want like a break. So now we're going to do my actor studio style questions. So, like I said, these can be short form or you can read, you can kind of elaborate a little bit, should you? Should, you like? What is your favorite Yiddish word?
Logan Levkoff:For this enough.
Nicole Kelly:Can you explain what that means for my listeners who don't know what that means?
Logan Levkoff:It's someone who's constantly scow means it's basically it's someone who's constantly scowling. It's like a constant, like resting bitch face. I feel like modern people would call it resting bitch face, I don't know Like it was a word that my mom used growing up and I'm just obsessed with it and it's a word that you hear it and you're like, oh my God, I feel what that word is, I could see it.
Nicole Kelly:And that's what I love about Yiddish is like, it's very like you feel the words. I love it. What is your favorite Jewish holiday?
Logan Levkoff:My favorite Jewish holiday, kol Nidre. It's the eve of Yom Kippur. I find the quiet and the music. I just I find it magical and peaceful. I desperately need that, that sense of there is a world out there more important than you, and I get it that night every year.
Nicole Kelly:If you were to have a bat mitzvah today, what would the theme of the party be? Zionist Barbie, of course. Well, if you have another bat mitzvah, that course. Zionist Barbie. Well, if you have another bat mitzvah, that sounds like a fun party. I'd like to attend what profession other than your own.
Logan Levkoff:Would you want to attempt, rabbi, rabbi?
Nicole Kelly:If heaven is real. I haven't gotten that one yet. If heaven is real and God is there to welcome you, what would you like to hear them say?
Logan Levkoff:Look who's waiting for you, and I'd like my grandfather to be standing behind them.
Nicole Kelly:I said something similar. It's hopefully what that is. So is there anything else that you want to talk about, like a project or a book? I mean, we've been. This is one of my longest interviews, Do I?
Logan Levkoff:have those these days. I feel like my life is literally like Logan Levka, former sex educator, big mouth, jew is really like business cards. But, by the way, that being said, like I wouldn't, I truth be told and and I wouldn't, I wouldn't change any of it. I feel like, um, I feel like I was kind of made for this, for this moment. Um, and I don't mean that in like an ego maniacal sort of way, I just feel like I look in the mirror these days and I see, I see my grandparents looking back at me. I know what my responsibilities are. I feel it deep in my bones and I feel like I've been prepared for this time. So, as as challenging as it is, I feel prepared. I feel prepared and I'll do whatever I have to do.
Nicole Kelly:Well, thank you so much for sharing everything and you know, giving advice, and I had a great time. Hopefully you did too. I did so. This is Nicole Kelly, and this has been Shebrew in the City ¶¶. Thank you.
