Shebrew in the City
Shebrew in the City is a podcast exploring all things Jewish. Combining interviews and informational episodes, join Nicole Kelly as she discusses her journey with motherhood, spirituality, and everything from Hanukkah to the Holocaust. Giving a voice to modern Jews and spreading love and joy, whether you're Jewish, Jew-ish, or not anything resembling Jewish at all, there's something here for everyone.
Shebrew in the City
"Let's Talk About Sex!" - An Interview with Logan Levkoff (Part 1)
Embark on a thought-provoking journey with me as I chat with the insightful Dr. Logan Levkoff about the profound interplay between Jewish identity and sexuality education. Discover the surprising roles Jewish culture has played in pioneering sexuality research, with figures like Magnus Hirschfeld and Dr. Ruth leading the charge. As she shares tales from her Zionist upbringing, we explore the complexities of Jewish identity, celebrating its diverse expressions and the unique dynamics of interfaith relationships.
Our conversation takes a poignant turn as we recount the emotional impact of the March of the Living, juxtaposing the haunting memories of concentration camps with the vibrant joy of Israeli independence. We touch on the vital role of education in combating antisemitism, drawing on personal experiences and lessons learned during my early work as a sexuality educator amidst the HIV crisis. This journey through history and education underscores the perennial need for awareness and understanding in overcoming ignorance and prejudice.
In a candid discussion, Dr. Levkoff shares her career paths in human sexuality education, unraveling the evolution of the field in the digital age. From the significance of initiating sex education early to breaking down complex topics for children, we offer insights into fostering open communication and navigating the challenges of modern relationships. Join us as we explore how to embrace pleasure and intimacy, challenge societal norms, and empower listeners to cultivate meaningful connections in their lives.
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Looking for tips and tricks on a new city? Top Dog Tours is the best place to check out walking tours. We are in Boston, philadelphia, toronto and New York City. Visit us on topdogtours. com to book your tour today and check us out on social media for offers. Hi there! This is Nicole Kelly and you're about to listen to a new episode of Shebrew in the City. So I will be talking to Dr Logan Levkoff, zionist and sex expert extraordinaire, and because we had so much to talk about, we're actually releasing two episodes. So tune in for the first part and be sure to subscribe to make sure that you hear the second part as well. Hi, I'm Nicole Kelly and this is Shebrew in the City and I'm very excited today because we have Dr Logan Levkoff joining us. Hi, Dr. Levkoff.
Logan Levkoff:Hi there Thanks for having me!
Nicole Kelly:As a parent and just about your career and how you got involved with this, because I think I mean maybe I'm wrong it's pretty. It's pretty unique field. It's probably very niche. I don't. I don't know any sexuality experts personally. You're the first person I've ever talked to.
Logan Levkoff:Well, it's funny. I mean now there seem to be a lot more. I started in this field when there were not that many. But, interestingly enough, this field was really pioneered by Jews, which is, yeah, I mean, beyond Dr Ruth, like early, like the sex researchers a lot of. I mean. It's super exciting to know that. You know, I think our love of learning right and human connection and relationships actually finds its way into sexuality too you're.
Nicole Kelly:You know I'm completely remembering when we were in berlin we took this really interesting. It was a gay history tour and we started at the spot. Yes, that's where it started, in front of that, where the former building was. So now you're absolutely right, I completely forgot that. This, even this, is even more rooted in Judaism than I realized, and for those of you that don't know about that, please Google this gentleman, his organization correct me if I'm wrong performed some of the first sex change operations, did a lot of research within the transgender community and gay community and sexuality in general. So very groundbreaking.
Logan Levkoff:His name was Magnus Hirschfeld. Yes, and again, like I think that this was, I mean the fact that lots of Jewish people in this space recognize that there was a lot more than what we had, you know, heard about, learned about that there was a value in understanding a lot more of who we were as human beings, intimately and otherwise, is always an exciting thing. I mean not that that doesn't get used against us a million times over too. But you know I like to look at it from the empowering side.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, I know, I think, especially with everything going on now and you know Jewish history in general, it's much better to look at it from an empowering as opposed to being oppressed, which is kind of the always joke. I feel like I've said it on the show before.
Nicole Kelly:Most Jewish holidays where they tried to kill us. They didn't we eat. It's kind of in our DNA. Yeah, totally. So let's go ahead and get started. So tell me a little bit about where you're from, what your Jewish background was like. Were you raised religious? If you were, what denomination? Did you have a bat mitzvah?
Logan Levkoff:Yeah, I mean. So it's a great question. I was raised in a very Jewish enclave in Long Island, the suburbs of New York City, and I have to say it wasn't. I mean, being Jewish was not unheard of, right. There was a very sizable Jewish population. I grew up Reform, reform. We were not so much observant as much as we were a very culturally, ethnically and very Zionist Jewish home.
Logan Levkoff:Connection to Israel was always a super important part of who we were and being Jewish was always a certain critical part of who we were. My late grandfather was an American Zionist leader. He was always back and forth to Israel. So this part of who we were my late grandfather was an American Zionist leader. He was always back and forth to Israel. So this part of who we were was so empowering and tremendously important. I became a bat mitzvah in 1989. I became confirmed in my synagogue. I went on summer trips to Israel. I was affirmed in my synagogue. I went on summer trips to Israel, summer tours. I did a Masada program which was run by ZOA at the time, and while all my friends were on the what was it called Tennis and scuba and sea programs, I was on the leadership training program Nerd back then, nerd now and I did March of the Living.
Nicole Kelly:So being Jewish was a huge part of who we were, not necessarily from an observant perspective, but I don't think a day went by where I wasn't reminded of who we were as Jews in and out of the community, and I think that's one of the beautiful things about being Jewish and what I'm trying to prove with this podcast and just my life in general that there are a million different ways to be Jewish and you don't have to keep kosher. You can be in an interfaith relationship, you can visit Israel the first time when you're 45, but you're still Jewish and that's valid and important.
Logan Levkoff:Yes, very much. And, by the way, I mean as Jewish, as I always felt and feel and was raised to feel, I also married someone who wasn't born Jewish.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah.
Logan Levkoff:And I think that that's such a big conversation to have and people make so many assumptions about interfaith couples, but the truth is my husband is not just celebrates, has embraced, has become Jewish and, by the way, being married to me, who's a fairly outspoken Jew, I mean, I think it takes a pretty, pretty strong, confident partner committed to the cause. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nicole Kelly:No, I am in the same boat.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm in the same boat. So, like I completely understand, like my daughter goes to a Jewish day school and my husband's name is Patrick Kelly. So I feel like it's no you know secret where his cultural background is from, though he's also Greek as well. There's like he's light and dark, white, as he says he's all shades of European. But yeah, no, it is. It is definitely, you know, a valid thing that I think a lot of people are, you know, kind of scared, or you know a valid thing that I think a lot of people are, you know, kind of scared or, you know, don't really want to talk about, because for a long time I think interfaith relationships, even if the spouse converted, were kind of I don't want to say taboo, but people were judged, you know. Or there was kind of like this low, low level of like well, so-and-so converted for you know, to marry so-and-so. And you know, I was always taught that converts are supposed to be kind of lauded over people who are born Jewish because they chose to be Jewish.
Logan Levkoff:Yes, I love it when someone says that they converted. My response is welcome and tell me why?
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, tell me. Yeah, I want to know your story. Forget mine, tell me yours. One of the cancers at our synagogue is a convert, so his episode came out last week and it was really interesting to talk about him. And he converted, along with his husband, and one of the things they first bonded over was the idea of wanting to convert to Judaism. And I feel like I want to do a whole series on interfaith relationships and different type of interfaith relationships, but kind of magical. Yes.
Logan Levkoff:It's amazing. It really it's, and especially with the way, I think, the world looks at faith these days, particularly in the United States. Why would we ever want people not to embrace Judaism, especially as an interfaith couple?
Nicole Kelly:or partnership.
Logan Levkoff:There's an organization, the idea that you have to write people off, like that's ridiculous. Being exclusionary doesn't help.
Nicole Kelly:There's an organization that you have to write people off, like that's ridiculous, yeah, and being exclusionary doesn't help. There's an organization called 18 Doors. I see a lot on social media that they do a lot of interfaith relationship work, whether it's like spouses converting or multi-faith households or spouses that are raising Jewish children but they aren't Jewish. Because there's so many it's it's there's so many different recipes when it comes to interfaith relationships and how that works out. I want to kind of veer off a second.
Nicole Kelly:You mentioned doing the March of the Living, which is something that's super interesting to me because I haven't told you this, but one of the things is I'm interested in going back to school and getting my master's and doctorate in Holocaust studies, so kind of combining that with what I do, owning a tour company and maybe like every quarter, taking a group over and like a March of the Living style thing. So for those of you that aren't familiar with March of the Living, I know we mentioned it on a previous episode, but would you kind of explain what that is and what your experience was like?
Logan Levkoff:yes, so in. I have to be honest, I don't know if all the details are still the same these days.
Nicole Kelly:Well, programs are changing yearly, so you know.
Logan Levkoff:When I was 18, I had just turned 18,. March of the Living is basically a trip that starts out in Poland where we visited concentration camps, which was brutal and hard. Concentration camps, which was brutal and hard and still to this day, despite the fact that I am, you know, 30 years beyond the age of 18, still one of the hardest things I've ever done in my entire life. We were in Poland, we saw the camps, we experienced anti-Semitism, walking around Poland, quite frankly, and it was an incredibly hard week, and we wound up doing the reverse Auschwitz to Birkenau walk. The March of the Living.
Logan Levkoff:And then we spend the second week in Israel for Yom Ha'atzmaut, to celebrate independence, to celebrate freedom and really see the journey, live the journey. That's how I remember going with a group of teens, some of whom I knew, many whom I didn't know, who shared in this very, very critically important and, at the same time, brutally hard experience and, to be perfectly honest, for a long time after I wasn't entirely sure why I did it. That's how hard I found it to be, because it wasn't like I was someone who didn't know the Holocaust, I wasn't a denier, I knew, and it reinforced so many of the things I had already believed. And it's interesting, I think I can circle back. I almost can do this weird. It's connected to today. Um, because post October 7th, I was offered an opportunity by the consulate to go see the, the footage from the 7th, the 47 minutes, uh, and I, I called my, I called my teenagers first.
Nicole Kelly:And.
Logan Levkoff:I said to my, my son, who's in college. I said I was offered this opportunity. I really don't know if I should do it. I have so many mixed feelings. You know I'm not the one that needs to see it. I believe it. I've seen a lot and in his very wise almost 19 years he said to me Mom, how do we fight atrocities if we don't bear witness to them? That was literally the quote that came out of his mouth.
Nicole Kelly:And I just thought and he's 19. He's so wise.
Logan Levkoff:I just thought and I thought, oh shit, I mean, yes, yes, you're right, but it changed the way. I have to be honest. It changed the way I now look back on March of the Living to really validate how important that experience was, despite how hard I found it to be. So, yeah, I mean our teenagers can clearly teach us.
Nicole Kelly:I mean my daughter. You know I understand like a third of what she says and I still feel like I learned things from her. So it's nice to know that that continues. But it is so important. That's one of the things I'm like. I feel like we have like a whole shelf of Holocaust books at our house. I just bought five more for a paper I'm writing. But it is important and it's hard and it's difficult.
Nicole Kelly:And you know, going to Auschwitz and Dachau, we did this on our fifth year anniversary trip because that's how much of a history nerd I am I dragged my husband through Central Europe on like a World War II history trip. It is important and you know they do. I know because I talked to another guest you can, as an adult, go. So if this is something you're interested in doing and I'm obviously a few years away from doing it myself and you don't want to go with me, or you can wait until I get my master's, but if you're interested in doing this and you're listening, they do have programs for adults and they organize stuff through through groups as well, or you can message me and I can give you suggestions on an itinerary, because you know, I think it's something a lot of people I know are interested in doing, but they're like it's really really heavy and really really hard. But I completely agree with what you said. It is.
Logan Levkoff:But you know, it's interesting because I think that part of why I felt like, oh, I don't know why I did it and I don't know why I did it and I don't mean that in a negative way I think it was because I assumed, clearly wrongfully, that the world was past vicious anti-Semitism. I agree, there's, yeah, there's a story. I worked, I think that I and it wasn't and it wasn't and I was. I was absolutely wrong. I mean, more people should have experienced March of the Living, people who weren't me, because maybe, maybe we'd be different.
Nicole Kelly:No, I'm right on there, I'm right there with you Between, because I used to be an actor. Between shows I was working at a retail store and there was an older lady who was retired and was just like working for fun and she mentioned something about the ADL and volunteering with them and I was like, oh, it's that. And she told me and I said, oh, we don't need things like that anymore because anti-Semitism isn't an issue like it used to be. And I feel like I was very, you know, naive in that and obviously now I know that organizations fighting anti-Semitism are super important.
Nicole Kelly:So I read on your website you started working as a sexuality educator back when you were 15. And from the date you just gave me from your bot meds for this was kind of in the height of the HIV crisis, which is one of the things that you mentioned that you educated people on. So what? How did you get involved with that? And I know AIDS at the time was very taboo. People were still. There was a lot of, you know, people who didn't really understand how it was transmitted and they thought maybe only gay people could get it and it was a whole. You know, it was a whole thing for those of you that are too young to remember this.
Logan Levkoff:Right it's. It's happens to be a really interesting story and speaks volumes about who my parents are. Interestingly enough, it wasn't like I was raised in a hyperal house, I have to say. I mean, we weren't conservative, but it wasn't like everyone was running around talking about sex and bodies and relationships. But, for whatever reason, in the late 80s, early 90s, hiv was finally being discussed as a virus that didn't discriminate, didn't care about who you were having sex with race, orientation, gender, ethnicity. It was a virus. It just needed a means of transmission.
Logan Levkoff:And, for whatever reason, my parents became super involved in HIV and AIDS fundraising and education. I think because it was that one amazing blip in time when sex came with life or death consequences At least that's how it was framed back then and so all of these people who had never spoken about sex before with their young people had to start talking. And so my parents' way of giving back and, you know, being generous with their time and their voice and advocacy was that they got involved in HIV and AIDS education. And I came home after school one day and there were condoms and bananas on my dinner table and my parents said this is how you use a condom and next week you go to peer training to teach others. My mom and her best friend started our town's first HIV and AIDS awareness program and training program with our local hospital.
Nicole Kelly:Wow so.
Logan Levkoff:I was basically part of the pilot program and what I found was I was really good at talking about sex. I mean, I wasn't having any, but I was really good at talking about things that typically made people uncomfortable, and I think that it.
Logan Levkoff:I think it came from being raised with a lot of ego and and this, this belief that I really could do whatever it is that I wanted to do, and I had enough confidence to think you know what, who cares if you're 15, you can do this, and I did, and what it wound up doing for me was giving me or highlighting my skill set, which is difficult conversations, which have evolved slightly over the years, but I'm really good at talking about things that make people cringe or blush or both.
Nicole Kelly:It's a good, it's a good quality. I think you know these conversations are necessary. At what point did you decide that you wanted to go from kind of just being like a peer volunteer and putting condoms on bananas in front of you know, fellow teenagers, to making this a career? When did you realize you could make this a career?
Logan Levkoff:I'm still surprised every day. I mean, I made it occur. I'm not really sure what I'm doing, so I went. Okay, so I'm going to say this because I feel a lot of shame over this right now, but I went to the University of Pennsylvania, which right now is not great for. Jews, which is so horrifying because it was such a wonderful place to be Jewish when I was there. And now I'm afraid that if I was walking Locust Walk with some of these protests, that I'd be arrested for sure, like there's no way I would be able to contain myself, but it wasn't like that then.
Logan Levkoff:So I went to Penn and I found myself listening to my friends and all of us were. We weren't. The decisions we were making about sex were not that great, and it wasn't the no condom, no protection kind of poor decision. It was no equity, it was no pleasure, it was not understanding our own needs for intimacy or the kind of relationship or not relationship that we wanted. And I thought, you know, there has to be a better way.
Logan Levkoff:And when, at the time, when I was looking for role models and again, this is very early, internet, this is dial up, aol and Netscape Dr Ruth was around and look, our field could not be our field without Ruth, for sure. But also there wasn't a lot of conversation. There weren't a lot of people speaking candidly and empoweringly about sex, particularly to girls and women, and so I just started to do what I thought was missing, and so I started to write these columns for the paper and our school's first anonymous sex advice column, and I started doing more peer education on campus. And then I had I thought I was going to law school because I had to put my big mouth to good use.
Logan Levkoff:And there was an opportunity back then. Penn had no longer has it, but had a master's and a PhD program in human sexuality education and I had the opportunity to graduate early and matriculate early into a master's program. And I called home and I said so listen, I think I'm going to graduate early and start this master's program. And my parents said that's great In what I said human sexuality education. They said great, what are you going to do with that?
Nicole Kelly:Very very typical Jewish parents.
Logan Levkoff:I remember what I said. I said I have to be honest, I have no idea. I have no idea, but I knew that it was where my passions were. But I knew that it was where my passions were, so I had to figure out how to make it work.
Nicole Kelly:And to this day, I'm still shocked that I made it work. It's nice that I feel like they were supportive, but they were also you know, again, stereotypical parents being like. But how are you going to make a living doing this?
Logan Levkoff:And it's hard and it is hard and now this field is more crowded. There are a lot of voices. It's driven a lot by social media. It's not easy. I recognize that I came up in this space at a really fortuitous time early in the world of public sexuality education and educators, and I do not take that for granted at all.
Nicole Kelly:It was. It was beshared to the timing of all of this, one could say so, as far as educational steps, you mentioned that you there was a master's PhD program. Were there any like externships or internships that you had to do or that were required for part of the program, like if someone was interested in doing this today, even though you know it's changed a little bit since you were in college? If they're interested in being an expert in human sexuality, what would be their educational steps?
Logan Levkoff:It's a good, it's a very good question, because there are a lot of non-traditional paths to go as well as traditional paths. So my path was I did my bachelor's, I did my master's and then I a part of my master's was I had to design and implement a sexuality education program, develop an entire curriculum and implement it, which was incredibly difficult and incredibly fulfilling at the same time. It's some of the hardest work that I've ever ever done, and I matriculated right away after getting my master's into a doctoral program at NYU, also batting a thousand in the antisemitism department.
Nicole Kelly:You know, I feel like it's just all colleges now Berkeley, you know particularly and I wound up.
Logan Levkoff:Really, the reason why I wound up going into a doctoral program so early was that I knew I was young in a field where I wanted to talk about sex, and I wanted to talk about sex publicly and I never wanted someone to look at me and say, okay, little girl, what makes you think you're an expert? Which is literally why I just bounced from one academic program into another, but I did wind up teaching that whole time. So I was working, I did everything from. I was implementing lots of pro bono sex ed work. I had a brief internship at Playboy magazine. I was volunteering for the anonymous HIV and AIDS testing site.
Logan Levkoff:I did as much as I could to develop a whole host of skills that I thought were going to eventually be important to what I was doing. But nowadays there are a lot of other programs and organizations, like, for example, I'm part of a program called Modern Sex Therapy Institutes that has professional training and certification programs for education, for counseling, for therapists. So it's not always about going the traditional academic route. There are still ways to develop those skills without doing an official college-related program Gotcha. That's the good news. There are a lot of different arenas these days.
Nicole Kelly:That's helpful because I feel like a traditional college trajectory is not a fit for necessarily everybody. You know, if they want to get involved. So we talked about this. What exactly do you do as a sexuality expert? So, if someone is interested in talking about sex, they like, like you said, having difficult conversations, but they're curious as to how to make this a career. What are your options, you know? In regard? To this if you don't want to be a sex ed teacher.
Nicole Kelly:Well, the funny thing is, I am Well I guess, when I think sex ed, I think of, like the weird awkward gym teacher in ninth grade.
Logan Levkoff:That's me, that's me. Just I'm not awkward and I'm not the gym teacher.
Nicole Kelly:I would have appreciated you much more than the sex ed teacher I had when I.
Logan Levkoff:So that is that. It's funny. You say that that that is literally what I do. So I I mean there are lots of different roles under the sexuality educator umbrella but I design and implement sex ed programs in a lot of schools, primarily in Manhattan and Brooklyn independent, public, secular, specialized, the religious, the works, the religious, the works. I'm in different schools every day. My youngest students are probably seven or eight, my oldest students have been 91. So yes, I am the gym teacher. Basically that's my gig.
Nicole Kelly:I am the gym teacher, I think you're a little more qualified than the gym teacher, though I hope so. Yes, Not just educationally but experience wise, because you said you've just been in all different facets of this, but hopefully you know.
Logan Levkoff:It gives me hope that when my daughter is learning about this stuff in school it's not the awkward gym teacher who makes everyone uncomfortable Not really I have to say most well, maybe I shouldn't say that A lot of schools are savvy enough to hire people who, first of all, are not the classroom teacher, because no classroom teacher who grades on grammar or whatever book that kids are reading for the week really wants to have to navigate conversations around sexuality, particularly when they're not trained to. And I think that a lot of schools are understanding that, developmentally, content wise, there are very unique skills that one needs to have and a lot of education, and you can't just say, okay, girls to one side, boys on the other. Here's your information. I mean, it's completely unethical and not realistic, but also it doesn't work that way.
Nicole Kelly:I feel like in certain parts of the country there are some schools that still do that or worse. I feel like in certain parts of the country there are some schools that still do that or worse. They're just like they don't talk about it. And, as we know, abstinence, you know, only sex education does not work at all.
Logan Levkoff:No, that it does not. And yet there are many states that are still taking lots of funding for abstinence only until marriage education. My take on it is abstinence is an option, sure, but at some point in life one makes the decision to share their body in some capacity with another human being. Probably should have some skills, probably should have some knowledge, probably should understand how to navigate outcomes and just understand how bodies work and feelings and what sexuality is and how it's critically important throughout our lives. We're sexual beings from birth to death. It's not this magical switch that gets turned on at some culturally appropriate time. It exists throughout our lives. So once we start othering it like it's this really big, scary conversation, that's when we create more guilt and shame around it. If we make it a subject like everything else, it's much easier to navigate.
Nicole Kelly:Why do you think that now, even now, you know, in what we would consider like liberal enclaves, sex is considered a bad or taboo subject? You know, I understand kind of in certain parts of the country or in certain eras where people didn't talk about this, but why is it that people are afraid to talk, to even say the word sex or talk about sex?
Logan Levkoff:I've never really been able to answer that question succinctly. I think part of it is if you don't have models for how to talk about these issues, it becomes really hard to model it for other people. So oftentimes, instead of engaging in these potentially complicated but really meaningful and valuable conversations, we just say nothing and hope that someone else is going to fill in the gaps. Inevitably, the people or sources that fill in the gaps are not the ones we want to fill in the gaps. Whether it's the kid on the back of the school bus or it's something typed into Google or whatever, it never is really what you want it to be.
Logan Levkoff:I think there is also a fear news media world where oftentimes parents and guardians are basically hit over the head and told the millions of ways that they can mess up their kids. It winds up becoming for lack of a better term almost paralyzing that this fear of messing up kids stops people from actually engaging in conversations that are really important, and we know how to operate from instinct. We know that if our kid asks a question, the likelihood is they're thinking about something and it deserves an answer. But if we're wondering what someone and I'll use the word expert here in quotation- marks some experts said.
Logan Levkoff:I would tell everyone the young people in your life you know better than anyone else, and so if your young person is talking about things and you feel like you should engage with that, you should absolutely engage with that.
Nicole Kelly:So you don't think there's ever too early and you start talking about sex, like my mom says, because I started talking like full sentences, like 18 months old or something ridiculous, and when my sister's three years younger than me and when my mom was pregnant, I guess I asked where babies come from, which is like a super common gateway question into sex. It's like you know, every kid is curious and she told me the truth and she's very proud of that and I'm very proud that she told me the truth and I was like, okay, I had no idea what she was talking about, obviously, but is it ever? You said, some of your younger students are seven years old. Is it ever too early to start talking about sex or body autonomy or talking about body parts with your child?
Logan Levkoff:No, never. In fact, we should be talking about sex and sexuality from birth, which always is like this shocking statement that gets like my, my quote on some horrible like Reddit page or something with. You know all the horrible things about me, but I mean that really seriously, because when we talk about sex and sexuality, we're not just talking about the act of having sex. We're talking about correct names for body parts, talking about different types of families, talking about consent right, Like no one is allowed to touch you without you giving permission and vice versa. There's so many amazing conversations that we have from birth on. I'll kind of speed through an early story and you should know that if I share stories about my kids, it's because they've given me their consent to do so, which is why you'll hear about one but not the other. So when my I respect the decision.
Logan Levkoff:It's important so when my, when my son was three uh, he, I was pregnant with his sister and he said to me one day what ingredients make a baby and I thought it was the smartest thing I'd ever heard Like ingredients. That's so great. And we we talked very briefly about sperm and egg and when sperm and egg come together they can create a pregnancy. And I said people make sperm in their testicles and you know, people with uteruses and vulvas and vaginas have eggs in their ovaries. And we do use the correct, we use the word vulva, we use the word uterus and things like that. And so he looked at me very proud and said I have sperm. And I said, well, not yet, but you know eventually. And I looked at him and I said do you want to know anything else? Do you want to know how they meet anything? And he looked at me and said no, I'm good. Pause, one year. One year.
Logan Levkoff:Right before bed on a Sunday evening which has been obviously the best conversations happen, he looks at me and says I had a thought, I'm going to whisper it in your ear and then we don't have to talk about it, which is odd, because we talk about everything. So already I knew that something was up. I said, okay, tell me. And he said, mom, I had this thought what if daddy put his penis in your vulva and vagina? I said, wow, that is, that's a great thought. I said we should great thought we totally should talk about it. That's a great thought. I said we should great thought we totally should talk about it. That's a great question. And so I said to him what made you think about this? And he's like I don't know, I was just thinking. Now I know how he was thinking about it because he'd been watching that Discovery Life series about the mating habits of sea creatures and plants or whatever, and I'm sure that something must have just clicked.
Logan Levkoff:And I said to him I said tell me what. What do you remember from last year? What ingredients make a pregnancy? And he said sperm and egg. I said do you know sperm and egg typically meet? And he said no. I said someone puts their penis into someone's vulva and vagina. I said so, you figured it out. That's exactly what happened and he was like beaming with pride, right? Oh, I figured that's so great. I said do you have any other questions? No, amazing, he went to bed Coincidentally at the same time. My mother happens to call and I proceed to tell her the conversation and like any panicky grandmother.
Nicole Kelly:She's freaking out. He's going to go to school tomorrow?
Logan Levkoff:And I said I don't think so, but I'll, you know, I'll circle back in the morning. So when Mav got up in the morning, I said listen, I remember the conversation from last night. Yes, I said I'm so proud that you asked me that question. I said and it's such a privilege for me to answer it for you, because there are not lots of opportunities for parents to get to tell their kids these things. So if you ever have questions, always come to me. I said. But also, if your friends have questions and you think you can answer them, ask me first, because it's really a treat for parents to have those conversations. And so he's like okay, fine. I said do you have any other questions? And he looks at me and says no, yes. I said okay, what's the question? And he looked at me and said when you were a little girl, did your mom answer all of your questions for you? And to this day, that magical moment is basically what I share with any group that I'm teaching.
Logan Levkoff:Young people just want to know that the person they love and trust unconditionally is going to be there to answer their questions. That is literally it. It does not matter whether it's about someone's penis, it doesn't matter if it's about you know how do lucky charms get in the box? Like it doesn't matter. They just want to know, really like they just want to know when they have a question, is that person they love going to answer? And so anytime someone says someone's too young to hear information, my answer is that's bullshit. There's no such thing as age appropriateness when it comes to content. When we hear that phrase because it's a gate, right, it's there to shut off conversations. When someone says that something is inappropriate, that's not a hey, let's talk about it later, it's a never talk about it again. Age appropriateness is supposed to refer to delivery, not content. How much you give the rationale for why you're giving it not the facts, the facts are the facts I think that's very wise, sorry so long.
Nicole Kelly:No, no, no I mean, like I am, I am a, I guess, newer still, she's gonna be three um, a newer parent and this is, you know, helpful to me and hopefully somebody else listening. But I, I think that you know, my husband and I have talked about not really since, like obviously we're not gonna be showing my child like porno, slasher films, she's not gonna be like watching like snuff films, but like, but we're not going to stop her, not today, um, but we're probably not ever um, but we're not going to stop her from seeing things. And you know we talk about this amongst our, you know, my friends. Sometimes it's like some of the stuff we watch we had no idea what the content was, and like we watched like Grease the movie, like so not like appropriate material, you know, I guess you know material for small children, but like you know, singing songs about like virginity when you're seven, when you don't even know what that is, but like if you don't make a big deal about it.
Logan Levkoff:I am a 1995 Madonna, like a virgin in the car front seat of the car generation.
Nicole Kelly:So I do, I do understand, I'm sure that it's the way I feel If you don't make a big deal about it, they don't make a big deal about it, Like if you're just like yeah, this is what it is, and I feel like there's a lot of parents that are a little too restrictive. But you know, I'm not to judge anyone else's parenting.
Logan Levkoff:What would be your. But again, people do get information, they find information, they always find information. So it's just an important reminder that if you don't share something, they will get the information they're not going to forget. No they just won't get it from you.
Nicole Kelly:I know and I would prefer certain information come from me, because I know it's right information, because there's so many, so many sources.
Nicole Kelly:Now, what would be, your advice to parents who are maybe a little I don't like the word prudish, maybe a little more shy about talking about sex in general, even in their own life. So having conversations with their children is something they're a little nervous about. I mean, is it one of those things that you know they? They kind of direct them to proper professional information like books, or have them talk to a professional, or should they have those conversations themselves?
Logan Levkoff:So it's an excellent question.
Logan Levkoff:I'm a big believer, especially with young people, in owning the discomfort that you have and why you have it.
Logan Levkoff:So to be able to say to a kid who asks you a question or you want to broach a subject with them and say look, I want to talk to you about something that is really important, but I have to be honest, I'm going to have a little hard time with it, because my parents never talked to me about these things or my information was so bad and I want to make sure that I do it right for you. I think that's a really humbling experience, and also that vulnerability goes a long way with a young person right when, all of a sudden, you're on the same level, you're willing to learn together and you get the sense that someone is pushing themselves outside of their comfort zone because it's for your well-being. So, yeah, I mean yes, you can always go to books and there are some incredible educational websites, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to have those conversations too, but explain why it's hard and why you're going to do it better this time.
Nicole Kelly:I like that advice. So you have a son and a daughter. Was the discussion with them about sex different because of their gender identity, or was it kind of just the same talk?
Logan Levkoff:No, we have no double standards in this house. What is good for one is good for everyone. The messages are exactly the same Empowering bodily autonomy focused, pleasure focused, having a voice. Yeah, no double standards here.
Nicole Kelly:I like that. I like that. The egalitarian thought process behind sex education.
Logan Levkoff:Well, in my professional and personal experience, no good things have come from mixed messages or double standards. It's just I've never I did. I was teaching eighth graders yesterday. We were talking about the sexual double standard and I said challenge me, tell me something good that has come from being told that there are different roles for people based on gender, different roles for sex and dating, and bodies and bodily autonomy and voice. Tell me what positive things have come out of this. And no one could come up with something positive. So to me I feel like that's a winning argument to say the double standard is bad, even if it's done with the best of intentions, which it often is to protect people. But in that attempt to protect people, we wind up actually harming them more.
Nicole Kelly:Makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. What are some of the ways that you think you know sex? Maybe in general, and especially the way we talk about it, have changed since you were a teenager.
Logan Levkoff:Oh, there's so much.
Nicole Kelly:I know it's a bit of a loaded question. There's a lot.
Logan Levkoff:No, that's okay. I mean sex. Sex and talking about sex obviously as a teenager in the 90s was very scary, right. It was very fear-based. It was driven by prevention of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections and the way in which people taught they would show you horrible pictures.
Nicole Kelly:I remember the blue waffle picture.
Logan Levkoff:Oh, and that wasn't even real.
Nicole Kelly:I know If you took sex in the 90s. You saw that picture and it was horrifying.
Logan Levkoff:Yeah, and not right and Photoshopped and manipulated yeah, terrible, the whole thing was terrible. And also, you're never going to see those things, that's. The other problem is that the strategy backfires because most STIs have no symptoms until something has progressed for an extended period of time, if they have any symptoms. So now, all of a sudden, everyone's thinking well, of course I'll know if someone has something because I'm going to see it. And the answer is no, you're not.
Logan Levkoff:And again, of course, there was a lot of shame and stigma built into that conversation. Obviously, people get sexually transmitted infections. It's in how we navigate it, a disclosure that really makes all of the all of the difference. So I think that the strategies for how we talked about sex have changed. Obviously, the language and conversations around gender and gender identity and sexual orientation have become far more expansive Conversations about pleasure, discussions of the word clitoris, which never happened when I was a young person, ever, never. Masturbation was only talked about as a male thing, which I think is highly problematic and obviously untrue, and even the conversations about reproduction. There are lots of different ways that people can create families these days that are not solely based on like someone's penis being in someone's vulva and vagina. So there is that, and then, of course, all different kind of relationship structures. So I think everything has changed, thankfully. Yeah For the good.
Nicole Kelly:I would agree. I mean, I'm a little bit younger than you but I feel like just talking to you and then literally bringing in an expert is a big enough change that it makes me happy that my daughter will have an actual better experience with that, because it was scary and like my school taught sex education, but they had this woman come in and she was the I'm worth waiting for woman and she told us this horrible.
Logan Levkoff:I don't know if you've heard of this.
Nicole Kelly:She told us this horror, if I told you this story, patrick. She told us this story about how she was basically sexually promiscuous as um, like a young woman, and she got chlamydia so many times, uh, that she basically was sterile and that she had gotten pregnant you know whether it was a relationship or you know kind of a just like a passing sexual experience and she had gotten an abortion. So she's like I aborted the only child I'd ever be able to have, and and it was one of those things that, like she'd ask like, well, if you think you're worth waiting for, come to me at the end of the class and say I'm worth waiting for. And it was like this weird peer pressure thing and like this horrible story about this woman. And I'm sure it was true. But this is not, that's not a normal experience for most people.
Logan Levkoff:I would also. I would also challenge a lot of that. So first of all, I hate the word promiscuous. It's so judgy and it only describes women and again what's? Promiscuous, like what does too much sex mean? Like that's a personal decision and often based on only rumors and gossip and not actual fact. And the other thing is is that she still could have had lots of sexual partners and if she'd used protection she would have gotten chlamydia or given it to someone else I don't know, obviously, who transmitted it to him.
Logan Levkoff:But again, there were ways to navigate that, yes, and if she had felt empowered about her sexuality, she would have gone to get tested and been able to. In this case you could cure it. You know, cure whatever it is that you have which. So it did not end up with pelvic inflammatory disease, which winds up being in causing infertility, like there. There was another path.
Nicole Kelly:Yes, that wasn't discussed, though. That was not part of the narrative. It wasn't part of the let's use this experience as a learning experience that I should have used a condom and this is why this happened. It was like, no, don't have sex. It was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. How do you think that social media has changed the way adults view sex and teenagers or younger children view sex? This is kind of like my two-part question, like my husband and I always joke about how hard it was to watch porn when we were younger, and that kids these days have it so easy because if you don't have like a parental block on a computer or a phone, you can just pull up Pornhub and it's there. Where, back in the day, it was like this bad videotape someone stole from their father.
Logan Levkoff:So how I remember when my neighbor got Playboy. Well, it actually wasn't my neighbor, it was my girlfriend in sixth grade and it was cable and it was only on like the whole screen was scrambled until the hours of like 4 am. And we used to like sit and try to like squeeze our eyes in between the static.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, that was my experience. And then I remember like HBO would have like very soft core stuff like late at like, starting at like 10 on cable.
Nicole Kelly:And that was, yes, real sex and what was that? Undressed was on MTV. Undressed was a big deal, which was, you know, it was like old school but like it's so easy. Now, and you know, my husband will sometimes be scrolling through Instagram and there's literally somebody's bottom, like naked bottom on the internet and it's like it's just so readily available, or boobs or whatever. It's just so readily available. Has this changed the way? First of all, adults view sex and children and teenagers view sex because it is so out there and it's so readily available.
Logan Levkoff:if you are curious, so yes and no, that's not really clear. But obviously having access to sexual material makes certain questions unnecessary to ask, right, or certain things that you're curious about seeing. They make it very accessible and so certain personal questions or desires or fantasies get answered by a visual very quickly. The flip side of that and I think it is a, it is a I'm going to say it is a problem actually for young people I am very concerned, going to say it is a problem actually for young people.
Logan Levkoff:I am very concerned about the lack of sexual intimacy that young people are having. So even pre-COVID rates of like late adolescent, early adults, the amount of sexual encounters or intimacy they were having was already on the downward trend and obviously post-COVID that continued. And I'm really afraid that our young people are losing the ability to develop intimacy skills, which require taking emotional risks, you know, figuring out boundaries, understanding your body, how to communicate that with someone else, all of those amazing milestone moments that people are supposed to have. I think that we often forget that the hallmark of adolescence is exploring and expressing your sexuality and that's a huge part of it. And now, because young people and adults too for that matter have access to so much right. It feels a lot safer to a lot of people to engage in a screen without engaging in personal face-to-face intimacy and connection. So, as great as access and turn on and stimulation may be, the flip side of it is that you don't develop actual human communication intimacy skills.
Nicole Kelly:So you think that's what the downturn is caused by is the fact that you can just pull out your phone and pull out something.
Logan Levkoff:I think that's a part of it. I think that's a part of it, and that we rely a lot on our phones to communicate as opposed to using our voice or face to face, or we rely on emojis or weird grammar which is which, by the way, it makes me sound old, and that's fine and we can do all of those things. But also there are certain things we have to learn to do face-to-face. Yeah Right, talking about someone's boundaries, talking about pleasure, talking about what feels good, talking about protection, all of that stuff is not just something you're going to type out in a text message.
Logan Levkoff:Yeah it's a little impersonal and oftentimes what happens is young people feel if you're going to type out in a text message. Yeah, it's a little impersonal and oftentimes what happens is young people feel if they're going to be perceived as too awkward they won't have that conversation at all, and that's unfortunate.
Nicole Kelly:I think talking about you talk a lot about pleasure and bodily autonomy and I feel like, as much as sex was explained to me as a teenager, the idea of it being pleasurable was not something because, like my mom loves romance novels and she's kind of passed that love on to me and like never discouraged me from reading those.
Nicole Kelly:But at one point I'm sorry if you're listening, mom she said she's like this is not what it's like. Like don't get this idealized version. And I think what she was trying to say was not every sexual encounter is going to be an orgasmic, life-changing experience like it is in these books. But I took it as not all like sex isn't always good, which is sometimes true. You know we've all, as adults, had bad and good sexual experiences. But I feel like the idea of trying to find my own pleasure as a sexual being is something that I came into, you know, in my in my 30s. I think it's something a lot of women, you know, I've had friends who said that they were sexually active for like a decade before they have an organ of orgasm because they didn't take ownership of that Right.
Logan Levkoff:Well, and probably didn't even know again.
Logan Levkoff:If the lens through which you learn about sex is male, right, that it's about, you know, an erect penis, yeah, and it's just about the vagina, Like that's not really going to do it for you, yeah, For most people.
Logan Levkoff:Right, there has to be other kinds of intimate touch and stimulation, but we often don't talk about it and instead what happens is we perpetuate this vicious cycle of lack of pleasure because we start to think okay, my experience isn't like what I read, isn't like what I saw in the movie. So there either is something wrong with the person I'm with that they're not doing it right, or there's something wrong with me. And if I think there's something wrong with me, I'm not saying a damn thing. Right, Like I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to go through the motions. I might sound like I think sex is supposed to sound like, because I want the other person to feel good and not even realize that all bodies have the capacity for pleasure and we should all be able to access that. But unless we learn that early, it's, it's something we don't figure out until we've wasted a lot of time, unfortunately.
Nicole Kelly:Yes, and some people never figure that out, which is, I think, really, really sad. Kind of pivoting back to talking about the internet, a little bit.
Nicole Kelly:What is your advice to parents who want to make sure their children are being sexually responsible on the internet? Because it's not just about now watching sexual things, it's sometimes now sending sexual things and I feel like you know, once it's out there, it's out there and you can delete stuff and it's still out there and your future boss, your future husband, your future mother-in-law, you know, can see that and you know not that I think you should necessarily be like ashamed of your body or wanting to share things with other people, but you know, if you're 15, maybe sending a nude photo to your boyfriend is not the best choice and what would be you know your advice to parents about how to talk about that, because I know my daughter's school does like a, like a unit on how to be a responsible citizen of the Internet, but I don't know if they talk about being a responsible citizen, yeah.
Nicole Kelly:I don't know if they talk about being sexually responsible on the Internet. My husband's like first of all, it's illegal. He literally just raised like first of all, that's illegal, it is illegal.
Logan Levkoff:I mean, there is that, there is that piece of it. So the first thing I want to say is it is not a surprise that young people use every avenue available to them to express their sexuality and, realistically speaking, it is no different than when I was a young person and we had these chat lines and we would all call these phones. It was like pre-AOL chat. It was used to be on the phone and all these teenagers were on the phone. I mean, I told people I was, my name was Daisy, I had like quadruple D breasts, like I, all of the things, all of the things. I wasn't clearly, but I but I was trying to find ways to test and express myself in a way that felt safe, right, and through the phone was how, how you know was was the avenue in which to do that back then.
Logan Levkoff:So it is not surprised that we use the avenues available to us. The difference is the sense of permanence, right, that there are outcomes that are very hard, if manageable at all, from putting yourself out there visually and sometimes even with your words, right online. You cannot take those things back. So there is a legal issue, obviously, if you are under the age of 18, it's considered child pornography, and our laws have not caught up with technology, so that in and of itself is a reason to say no, but again, not because you wanting to share yourself with someone else is a bad thing.
Logan Levkoff:It's just because the system is not set up to protect you. And the other piece of it is to think about the idea that no person who really cares or respects you and vice versa wants to put you in a position where something harmful could happen because of something you've asked them to do, because it's not always about someone being vengeful with you. Sometimes we just accidentally text something to the wrong person, or someone picks up our phone. It's not always deliberate. Sometimes it's accidental.
Nicole Kelly:Or you post it yourself. Chris Evans posted a naked picture to Instagram on accident.
Logan Levkoff:A couple of years ago. Right there you go. So I think it's not shaming the desire to do it or the concept as much as it is. The outcomes are really hard for a young person to manage and, by the way, the outcomes are really hard for an adult to manage too. It's not just about you know, you're a teenager, so don't do it, it's also it's hard. Intimacy is supposed to be intimate and oftentimes we don't want every person we know seeing all aspects of our body or how we share it with another person.
Nicole Kelly:So kind of pivoting from talking about talking to teens and our children, I want to talk about adult relationships a little bit. I noticed on your website you wrote a book called how to Get your Wife to have Sex with you, which is my favorite book title, probably ever. What is this book about?
Logan Levkoff:The book was designed as a first-person narrative and, yes, it is very much written as I speak, so it's supposed to be funny and a little snarky, and also very honest too Of the things that we need to do inside and outside of the bedroom in order to achieve intimacy at some point. And again, we are partners regardless of your gender or sexual orientation. Like sexual pleasure, sexual intimacy, frequency, success, whatever satisfaction is not just dependent on one person. It's certainly dependent on the entire unit, but it was a fun way to talk about the things that lots of women often say, that in this case, heterosexual men don't often get.
Nicole Kelly:I mean, and sometimes it's difficult to say those things because you're like, I don't feel like doing this, but it's really because of X, y and Z and you don't even realize it. So there is, I think, an important space to talk about, and I love that you said outside of the bedroom too, because sometimes if someone's been doing something that makes you feel like you can't be emotionally open with them, but it's because of you know, the fact that they don't want to listen to how your day was.
Logan Levkoff:it's not related to sex you know it's not related to sex, you know, is also just as valid and as important as well, right, right, because it's about intimacy, it's about feeling connected, and there's plenty of sex that takes place that has nothing to do with intimate or emotional connection, and that type of sex is great too. But sometimes if you feel disconnected, it's really hard to translate that to. I would really love to jump into bed with you when you have not cared one iota about anything that has happened today. So it's just. I mean again, it's designed to be published, like right before.
Logan Levkoff:My husband said to me don't you think I should read the book? I said I mean, I would have thought you would have read it already. Yes, that's probably a good idea. You should read the book. And so we were. I was going on like the I think it was the Today Show the next day. He said, just so you know that if this book doesn't work, I'm going to call in and say that you lied. Know that if this book doesn't work, I'm going to call in and say that you lied. I said I'm not worried, it's going to work, don't worry. Don't worry, honey, it'll work.
Nicole Kelly:Your husband sounds funny.
Logan Levkoff:I mean he has to have a sense of humor being married to someone like me.
Nicole Kelly:otherwise, I think a sense of humor is important in marriage in general because we had to, do not like, had to. It was a a pleasure, this premarital counseling with the cantor who married us, and one of the things she did say was you know, need to be honest with each other about sex, which I thought was, first of all, like hearing a member of the the clergy say sex.
Nicole Kelly:I was like oh my god oh, like, um, which is, you know, really great advice. But she's also like you need to be able to laugh with each other, like that's such an important part, I think, of any relationship sexual, non-sexual being able to laugh with each other, like that's such an important part, I think, of any relationship sexual, non-sexual being able to find humor, because life is hard and if you're going to be serious with each other all the time, it's just not going to be fun, right? So, speaking of books, what is your thought on this five lung languages that has taken over the culture? I have personal thoughts because, but I want to hear what you think before I kind of talk about that.
Logan Levkoff:You know I'm not really one to. There's only one book I've ever really judged, and it was when I was really young. There was a book called the Rules oh my God, I've heard about this.
Nicole Kelly:I've heard about this, I've heard about the rules.
Logan Levkoff:It was a guide for women to find a man to marry. And I was so hard, I was so horrified.
Nicole Kelly:It was like pretend to be someone else through your entire relationship, even after you're married.
Logan Levkoff:It was bad, the whole thing was bad and it was all it was like goal oriented to get married. I'm like what, and not as if nothing else mattered. It was, it was. It was really bad, you know. So I can't, I can't really judge it. I feel like if any, if any relationship or sexuality piece of literature speaks to you, then amazing. You know, I think there are a lot of texts out there because there are a lot of different people out there, and so whatever resonates is valuable.
Nicole Kelly:It's much nicer than what I have to say about the book, because it's written by like You're not an acts of service. No, no, I am a gift giver If we're going by this analogy that this past year made up. I'm a gift giver if we're going by this analogy that this past year made up.
Logan Levkoff:By the way, I'm a gift giver also, that's mine.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, I am a gift giver. My husband is personal. Is it personal time? It's called personal time, quality time. But yeah, you're much nicer about the book than I am In general. I mean, this sounds this is a very stupid question, I feel like. But how important is sex in a relationship, and is there an age where it starts to become less important in a relationship?
Logan Levkoff:Sexual intimacy is always important in a relationship and I'm going to put a little like asterisk on that but I don't necessarily think sexual intimacy always has to be about sexual intercourse. I think it's about physical connection and pleasure, and there are a lot of ways that we can get that, and it doesn't have to be this like how many times this week or this month did we do this? One thing I do think physical intimacy is really important. Otherwise, people can become like roommates, and for periods of time you know that works right After someone, a big life change, right, whether that's birth, whether that's, you know, the loss of someone, like.
Logan Levkoff:Those patterns happen absolutely, but at some point we remember that we want to be touched a certain way, we want to feel connection, and that's not like gender-based, that's the need for human contact. So I think it's always. I think physical intimacy is always important. I think it just changes throughout the lifespan how much you need, how much you want, how you want your relationship structured changes. The most important thing, though, is the ability to talk about it if it's changing in a direction that you would rather it not change towards. Oftentimes, we wait till things are really bad before we engage in a conversation about it, where it would have been a lot easier to navigate tough times early on.
Nicole Kelly:I think those are scary conversations to have. Sometimes, though, because you have to be emotionally vulnerable, especially if you don't feel comfortable talking about sex in general, and being emotionally vulnerable involving sex can be really really hard for some people.
Logan Levkoff:Absolutely, but the likelihood is, if you feel unsatisfied, someone else probably does too. That makes a lot of sense.
Logan Levkoff:That's the other piece of it. And so there are ways to use your surroundings to initiate these conversations, whether it's you read something in a book and say, like you know, I read this thing, it was really interesting to me, I hadn't even thought about it before. Or you see something on TV, or it's article, and you tell someone that someone sent it to you, like whatever it is, that gives you the opportunity to start a dialogue. We don't always have to do it like sitting at a table saying listen, there's something I really want to talk to you about, right, it can be far more organic and fun, and actually fun and entertaining. It could be that you're watching a movie and you could laugh and say you have to be honest, I've always wanted to try that. I don't know why. I've always wanted to try that. Who knows what that little sentence can start.
Nicole Kelly:So I hope you enjoyed that first half of my interview with Dr Logan Levkoff. Be sure to subscribe to make sure that you don't miss part two. ¶¶ Bye.
